[Freeciv-Dev] Re: Civ II player puzzled by ICS strategy (long)

["Luis Palma" <lpalma@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Em Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:54:43 +0100 Aliaga <aliaga@xxxxxxxxxxxx> escreveu:
Hi,

At 13:55 10/01/01 -0500, you wrote:

>This is easily done via a server option: "set unhappysize=1" will 
>aproximately give you Deity level.  However, nobody seems to want to let go 
>of their good old ways.

I see. People are free to play what they like best. If they like easy empire
building, easy ICS and win by easy tactics...

On the other hand, if it is not too hard, some server(s) could be set up for
the more "advanced" or "challenge-oriented" players...

Still other servers with longer/shorter/whatever timeouts...

Servers playing only historical maps...

Etcetera...

Let people "vote with their mouse"... even display rankings ala Civ "Hall of
Fame" to see who wins what kind of game... (everybody termed as "The Meek",
"The Unready", "The Iron Fist"... boy was that cool :-)


>BTW, I have already concluded that patching out the city center is not the 
>right way to go and thus abandoned that approach.

Fine, but, as a programmer myself, I'd say do not throw away that code...
one never knows.   :-)


>I am certain this is indeed a real threshold in CivII.

*sigh* It's been too much time since my last game there... I used to _dream_
that Rules.txt file...


>That's the whole idea.  It's called game balance.

It was really enthralling to be able to muck the rules so much and still the
thing balanced itsef so nicely.


>Problem is, neither the corruption or unhappiness level in Freeciv is high 
>enough to put a stop to ICS.

...

>I believe it will not be enough.  There will still be enough loopholes to 
>allow ICS to succeed.

Well, there's no need to ban ICS. Only slow it. Allow other empire-builders
to defend themselves up to the point where big cities matter. Let ICS
players know what happens when irresistible forces meet unbeatable
defenses...    :-D


>Remember there is really no concept of "Deity" or "King" level in Freeciv.  
>You have to adjust individial parameters separately in the rulesets or the
server options.

This may be a bonus. Make a list of pseudo-levels of difficulty attainable
by nudging every parameter a bit every way. Have a dozen of them. Let people
"vote" on them, playtest them, invent strategies for them... invest
everything in some start-up company specialized in life-support sistems for
addict net-players...    :-)


>That's only where it is most obvious.  Even on other types of maps, ICS 
>still holds an undisputed advantage.

I'd like to be able myself to test that. I believe that by improving some
defensive capabilities of a handful of units/terrains the easier onslaughts
could be repelled and things would be not so straightforward for the
single-minded attacker.


>Well, if it unbalances the game, it _is_ a loophole.  The one in CivII is 
>that, although there are very unhappy citizens, the wonders make then go 
>away easily.  My patches will make this more difficult, and thus effectively 
>reduce the effectiveness of happiness wonders.

Well, nukes unbalance the game. Launching the spaceship unbalances the game.
Lots of ironclads unbalance the game. Hordes of wealthy diplomats unbalance
the game. When I can afford to build every WoW I want or take any one of
them from an enemy, then the game is unbalanced and I'll win. It's the "big
get bigger" problem that people complain about...

I'd call something a loophole if this unbalancing is achieved by some
easy/cheap mean. Here you have a point. These happiness wonders are too
powerful at a bargain price, and I, for one, would like to see their
cost/benefits tweakable... or even to be able to build "counter-wonders"...

By the way, off topic... first thing I changed in CivII was rename the
Eiffel Tower to OLIMPIC GAMES. Made much more sense to me, and it was kinda
neat seeing several tribes pursuing them...

        M.A.

---

Here is my personal considerations about ICS based on the Portuguese Colonies 
Experience.

Portugal had many colonies allover the world as a result of Portuguese 
Expansion Age over de XV to XVIII centuries.
Colonies in South America, like Brazil, in Africa like Angola, Mozambique, 
Guinea Bissau, Cape Verde, S. Tome e Principe, in Asia like Portuguese India 
cities of Goa, Damao and Diu, Macau (portuguese governement over this city in 
the Chinese territory) and last but not the least EAST TIMOR.
Portugal had restricted military resources for such a vast territory (I guess 
not even US today could defend properly such kind of empire with their colossal 
war power). Back then Portugal had state-of-the-art military technology and 
powerful allies like England. And had a stable (sometimes precarious) relation 
with their neighbour's  Spain.
You can compare this to some kind of ICS strategy, can't you?
But, not only was hard to handle corruption on far cities as it was hard to 
deal with all the menaces other non-friendly nations made.
Corruption reflects in not only decreasing production but in growing in the 
population of remote places of the empire the spirit of revolution and 
independence.
Brazil was the first colony to go, back to the XVIII century. Far away from the 
decision places of the Empire, brazilians with the support of the Prince D. 
Pedro, the son of the King of Portugal, made the revolution incited by the 
famous "Independence Or Death" scream.
No more incidents like this happened until the XX century.
In the 50's as a result of the Indian Revolution, the Indian Union Army invaded 
the Portuguese India cities of Goa, Damao and Diu, following the orders of 
Gandhi. The portuguese government was cought by surprise, the army place there 
was clearly insufficient to oppose to the advance of the Indian army. No other 
solution was possible but surrender.
Ten years later, the African Libertation Armies made their appearence. The 
spirit of liberty invaded the spirit of the african people and Europe nations 
like England, France, Holland and Portugal were faced with this independence 
wish.
As new african nations were built Portugal kept the strong resolution of 
keeping their colonies. It was war, the worst type there is: guerrilla.
If you are aware of Vietnam war you know what I mean.
With the support of neighbour countries it was very expensive and life 
consuming to keep the colonies. 
In 25 of April of 1974 a revolution in Portugal made the regime fall. The main 
goal was to end the war that was taken so many portuguese lifes. The war endend 
after 13 years. The colonies had their independence and Portugal territory 
remaining was the today's land in Europe, Madeira Islands and the Azores. 
Macau, just like Hong Kong, is now Chinese, by agreement of the governements of 
each countries.
  
All this talk just to say: in real life ICS it's not a winning strategy. Nor 
should be in FreeCiv.

I like to play Civ2 and FreeCiv, not for winning in any manner. I like to build 
a strong empire that history books will remember. I like power, I like honour, 
I like millitary tactics. I like to win, of course, but I like to play just 
like I was in real life. That's the cool thing about stratagy war games.

Luís Palma



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