[aclug-L] Re: Richard Reid

[Michael Moore <mrmoore@xxxxxxx>]

John Goerzen wrote:

>On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 09:18:40PM -0600, Michael Moore wrote:
>  
>
>>>one's own position, to discover flaws, or to correct one's thinking.  People
>>>that become evasive or prone to ad hominem attacks when their beliefs are
>>>questioned lead me to believe there is some underlying insecurity about
>>>those beliefs.
>>>      
>>>
>>Sorry, but I do need to respond to this.  There is no insecurity about 
>>my beliefs!!!!!
>>    
>>
>
>Since you felt I was talking to you, does that mean you feel you are evasive
>and prone to ad hominem attacks? :-)
>  
>

Well, I'm not avasive....just straight forward.  Speaking of attacks, 
were you not attacking me.  Heck, you even quoted what I wrote.  See 
what you wrote below in the 2nd paragraph.


I'm not sure there's a clear line between someone's ideas and someone's
viewpoint.  Frankly, I too enjoy the debates you referred to, and welcome an
informed challenge of my ideas and viewpoints.  It is a good way to sharpen
one's own position, to discover flaws, or to correct one's thinking.  People
that become evasive or prone to ad hominem attacks when their beliefs are
questioned lead me to believe there is some underlying insecurity about
those beliefs.

What I do not enjoy are comments saying that the Democrats' motto is "Have
you hugged a terrorist today".  That's not helping advanced any kind of
civilized discourse.

-- John
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>  
>
>>I am sorry you don't enjoy comments like "Have you hugged a terrorist 
>>today"........and I don't enjoy comments that compare Nazi Germany to 
>>the USA or President Bush Hitler.  And by the way, my comment was 
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>Those are not comments that I made.
>

I did not say you made those comments.  Once, again....here is what you 
did say.

"What I do not enjoy are comments saying that the Democrats' motto is "Have
you hugged a terrorist today".  That's not helping advanced any kind of
civilized discourse."


>
>  
>
>>sarcasm.  If you took it too personally than maybe you are insure about 
>>your beliefs?
>>    
>>
>
>While you obviously did not mean that the Democrats literally said that, by
>the same token you implied that they took a position that they did not. 
>This was not something that was personal or insulting to me.  After all, the
>position you ascribe to them is MY position, NOT theirs.
>
>I would only wish that there were more people in government that share my
>viewpoint :-)
>
>  
>
>>Why do you believe that anyone that doesn't believe the same as 
>>you....is attacking you.....that sounded american. ;-)
>>    
>>
>
>I never stated that and do not believe that.
>
>  
>
>>This whole thread was started by jlweaver comment about the Shoe 
>>Bomber.....and the several people jumped his case for his views.
>>
>>You wrote:
>>
>>That is one of the most low-down disgraceful comments I've seen in a long
>>time.  To show such little regard for human life removes your ability 
>>to, in
>>good faith, condemn Reid's actions.
>>
>>Comments like those and others I don't enjoy.  It seems there is more 
>>concern for these terrorists feelings and rights than there is for U.S. 
>>Citizens.  If your upset becuase you felt jlweaver would be happy about 
>>    
>>
>
>Several points:
>
>1. I do not believe that the life of a U.S. Citizen is more valuable
>   than the life of anyone else.  We should respect people because they
>   are human, not because of where they happened to be born.
>
>2. I did not in any way imply that the lives of U.S. Citizens were not
>   valuable.  I agree that the 9/11 attacks were wretched and wrong.
>
>3. I further believe that inflicting more pain on the world is not
>   going to mend the pain we have suffered; only prolong it.
>  
>

I don't like any of you three points.   In your first point... you say, 
you do not believe that the life of a U.S. Citizen is more valuable than 
the life of anyone else.  But, by your own words (see your point 3) you 
imply that a U.S. Citizen has less value than the life of somebody in 
another country.  Why, would I say that...becuase you don't want to 
stand up for America..... becuase you don't want to inflict any pain on 
the rest of the world.  By doing nothing, and letting Sadam and 
terrorist continue down their current road you put all of us in danger. 
 And I do take offense to that.  You say we are inflicting more pain, I 
say we will be helping to prevent another attack much worst than 9/11. 
 I think another attack would not mend the pain we have suffered. 
 Another attack would prolong it.


>  
>
>>Reid being murdered in prison......So What.  You do realize we are in a 
>>WAR.....on Terrorism..... Guess what happened after World War II ended. 
>>    
>>
>
>It is not a war; that is mere propoganda and a means for evading
>international law and weakening domestic rights.
>  
>

Propoganda, that's were you are wrong......Your domestics rights will do 
you know good if there is no America left.  Talk about things 
middle-easterners hate about Americans ....Arrogant Americans....Do you 
think you can sit back and put your arms around your domestic rights and 
no other country is going to mess you.  There is politcal propoganda 
going on; but, the Left is carrying that torch.

If you do not believe there is a War On Terrorism.  Then you should 
watch the National News a bit more and see how many are being captured 
around the world.  And we have a long way to go.

War On Terrorism........If you are not with us you are against us. 
 Once, Iraq is liberated you will see how may Iraqies (sp) will be happy 
we did.  If you really care about the inhuman treat of people you would 
want Sadam out of power.  

"A  means for evading international law"  Give me a fricking break.  You 
are spouting so much propoganda it makes me sick.  The propoganda is 
coming from Terrorist, Sadam, countries with other political and 
financial agendas; such as, Germany and France and some other mis-inform 
factions and less I forget the Leftist.  You need to check you 
facts!!!!!!  We are not evading international law,,,,Sadam is doing that.

>  
>
>> We defeated our enemy (which include a lot of killing - Including the 
>>dropping of (2) Nukes).  From all the old news reel footage it looked 
>>like not only Americans, but the whole world was celebrating their 
>>victory. You know, I bet the losing side didn't like that....but, thats 
>>just tough.  War is not meant to be pleasant.
>>    
>>
>
>Which is why we should not be so eager to engage in it.
>
>While we're thinking of the pain inflicted, what about the far more
>far-reaching consequences of the two nukes we dropped?  Or are you saying
>that American lives are more important than Japanese?  If so, I submit that
>this bigoted attitude puts you at odds with a great deal of modern thinking.
>  
>

You call me a bigot.  This is so sad.  You just don't get it do you?  I 
never said I think my life is more important than someone else's.  But, 
that doesn't mean I will let my enemy kill me and other Americans (even 
you).

You want to know the consequences of dropping the two nukes.  It saved 
250,000 American solders lifes.  Now, you are going to tell me that the 
life of our enemy is more important to you than your fellow country men 
and the solders that die for you so you can have your freedom. 
 Remember, we did not start WWII; but, we did end it.

If you want to call me a bigot then I say, So Be It.  But, I am proud to 
say I am not ....Anti-American.  Unlike you I love my country and my 
countrymen and will not sacrific their lives to save a few lives of my 
enemy.



>  
>
>>Also, for the last 4 months there has been continual bashing by the 
>>Left-Wing against anybody that doesn't share their view.  They attack 
>>the USA with there words.  They don't want to go into Iraq and they 
>>verbally attack anyone that disagrees with the view.  In the last 4 
>>months, time and time again you hear the Hollywood elite stand up and 
>>say they are ashamed to be an American. How insecure is that, they are 
>>not getting what they want so they behave just like a child that might 
>>tell their parent they are ashamed to be their son or daughter and 
>>unless they get what they want they are running away from home.  I might 
>>not agree with everything the USA does; but, you will never hear me say 
>>that I am ashamed to be an American.
>>    
>>
>
>OK, let me start out this way: I am ashamed to be an American.
>
>Why do I say that?  Is it because I did not get my way?  No, that's not it
>at all.  I say that because "my" government is over in various contries in
>the mideast killing people, incarcerating others, supporting repressive
>dictatorships, and generally pretty much acting to make life miserable for
>the people over there.
>
>I care about all human life, American and otherwise.  I believe that the
>best way to help the human condition is not to support repressive
>dictatorships and engage in overseas meddling, but to be a constructive
>member of the global community.  And yes, that will help Americans too. 
>Don't you think that acting to remove the impetus for such hatred will be
>beneficial to us?
>
>Now let me say this, too: it is not an insecure person that makes these
>remarks.  As you have demonstrated, these are hardly popular viewpoints, and
>people are prone to misinterpret them as a call for the destruction of the
>USA or overthrow of the government [1].  It is merely a call on our existing
>government to act responsibly rather than like a schoolyard bully.
>
>[1] 
>http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl442900470d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_drrb=b&as_mind=29&as_minm=3&as_miny=1995&as_maxd=25&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=2003&selm=aa384c29.0301211142.336eea02%40posting.google.com
>    One response to a post called peace protestors "socialist anti-Americans."
>    Never mind that many of our current allies are socialists....
>
>  
>
>>Scott Rarden said:
>>
>>But one of the things that bothers me about the internal discussions about 
>>what we are doing and what we should be doing is that it
>>usually gives the benefit of the doubt to other countries before ours.
>>
>>
>>Nicely said by Scott.  That is my problem with these other views in a 
>>nutshell.  In all these discussions the USA is the bad guy.  And since I 
>>am sticking up for the USA than I am the bad guy too.
>>    
>>
>
>That is only because that seems to be the thing about which there is the
>largest amount of disagreement.  Presumably you agree with me that bin Laden
>is a "bad guy", that Reid is a "bad guy".  What point is there in discussing
>that at length?
>
>Perhaps you do not agree with me that Ashcroft is doing more to hurt our
>civil liberties than bin Laden ever could.  Ahh, now there is something to
>discuss.
>
>  
>
>>I'll quit my ranting now......the message won't get thru away.
>>    
>>
>
>Well, you seem to be assuming the message I am sending is far different from
>the one I am endeavoring to express with my words, so it may be safe for me
>to say "likewise" :-)
>
>Why must it be so black and white with you?  What happened to the American
>idea of being able to disagree with the government peacefully?  To being
>able to protest?  You seem far more radical than those in power in some
>ways.
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>
>
>  
>



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