[aclug-L] Re: Richard Reid

[John Goerzen <jgoerzen@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 09:18:40PM -0600, Michael Moore wrote:
> >one's own position, to discover flaws, or to correct one's thinking.  People
> >that become evasive or prone to ad hominem attacks when their beliefs are
> >questioned lead me to believe there is some underlying insecurity about
> >those beliefs.
> 
> Sorry, but I do need to respond to this.  There is no insecurity about 
> my beliefs!!!!!

Since you felt I was talking to you, does that mean you feel you are evasive
and prone to ad hominem attacks? :-)

> I am sorry you don't enjoy comments like "Have you hugged a terrorist 
> today"........and I don't enjoy comments that compare Nazi Germany to 
> the USA or President Bush Hitler.  And by the way, my comment was 

Those are not comments that I made.

> sarcasm.  If you took it too personally than maybe you are insure about 
> your beliefs?

While you obviously did not mean that the Democrats literally said that, by
the same token you implied that they took a position that they did not. 
This was not something that was personal or insulting to me.  After all, the
position you ascribe to them is MY position, NOT theirs.

I would only wish that there were more people in government that share my
viewpoint :-)

> Why do you believe that anyone that doesn't believe the same as 
> you....is attacking you.....that sounded american. ;-)

I never stated that and do not believe that.

> This whole thread was started by jlweaver comment about the Shoe 
> Bomber.....and the several people jumped his case for his views.
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> That is one of the most low-down disgraceful comments I've seen in a long
> time.  To show such little regard for human life removes your ability 
> to, in
> good faith, condemn Reid's actions.
> 
> Comments like those and others I don't enjoy.  It seems there is more 
> concern for these terrorists feelings and rights than there is for U.S. 
> Citizens.  If your upset becuase you felt jlweaver would be happy about 

Several points:

1. I do not believe that the life of a U.S. Citizen is more valuable
   than the life of anyone else.  We should respect people because they
   are human, not because of where they happened to be born.

2. I did not in any way imply that the lives of U.S. Citizens were not
   valuable.  I agree that the 9/11 attacks were wretched and wrong.

3. I further believe that inflicting more pain on the world is not
   going to mend the pain we have suffered; only prolong it.

> Reid being murdered in prison......So What.  You do realize we are in a 
> WAR.....on Terrorism..... Guess what happened after World War II ended. 

It is not a war; that is mere propoganda and a means for evading
international law and weakening domestic rights.

>  We defeated our enemy (which include a lot of killing - Including the 
> dropping of (2) Nukes).  From all the old news reel footage it looked 
> like not only Americans, but the whole world was celebrating their 
> victory. You know, I bet the losing side didn't like that....but, thats 
> just tough.  War is not meant to be pleasant.

Which is why we should not be so eager to engage in it.

While we're thinking of the pain inflicted, what about the far more
far-reaching consequences of the two nukes we dropped?  Or are you saying
that American lives are more important than Japanese?  If so, I submit that
this bigoted attitude puts you at odds with a great deal of modern thinking.

> Also, for the last 4 months there has been continual bashing by the 
> Left-Wing against anybody that doesn't share their view.  They attack 
> the USA with there words.  They don't want to go into Iraq and they 
> verbally attack anyone that disagrees with the view.  In the last 4 
> months, time and time again you hear the Hollywood elite stand up and 
> say they are ashamed to be an American. How insecure is that, they are 
> not getting what they want so they behave just like a child that might 
> tell their parent they are ashamed to be their son or daughter and 
> unless they get what they want they are running away from home.  I might 
> not agree with everything the USA does; but, you will never hear me say 
> that I am ashamed to be an American.

OK, let me start out this way: I am ashamed to be an American.

Why do I say that?  Is it because I did not get my way?  No, that's not it
at all.  I say that because "my" government is over in various contries in
the mideast killing people, incarcerating others, supporting repressive
dictatorships, and generally pretty much acting to make life miserable for
the people over there.

I care about all human life, American and otherwise.  I believe that the
best way to help the human condition is not to support repressive
dictatorships and engage in overseas meddling, but to be a constructive
member of the global community.  And yes, that will help Americans too. 
Don't you think that acting to remove the impetus for such hatred will be
beneficial to us?

Now let me say this, too: it is not an insecure person that makes these
remarks.  As you have demonstrated, these are hardly popular viewpoints, and
people are prone to misinterpret them as a call for the destruction of the
USA or overthrow of the government [1].  It is merely a call on our existing
government to act responsibly rather than like a schoolyard bully.

[1] 
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl442900470d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_drrb=b&as_mind=29&as_minm=3&as_miny=1995&as_maxd=25&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=2003&selm=aa384c29.0301211142.336eea02%40posting.google.com
    One response to a post called peace protestors "socialist anti-Americans."
    Never mind that many of our current allies are socialists....

> Scott Rarden said:
> 
> But one of the things that bothers me about the internal discussions about 
> what we are doing and what we should be doing is that it
> usually gives the benefit of the doubt to other countries before ours.
> 
> 
> Nicely said by Scott.  That is my problem with these other views in a 
> nutshell.  In all these discussions the USA is the bad guy.  And since I 
> am sticking up for the USA than I am the bad guy too.

That is only because that seems to be the thing about which there is the
largest amount of disagreement.  Presumably you agree with me that bin Laden
is a "bad guy", that Reid is a "bad guy".  What point is there in discussing
that at length?

Perhaps you do not agree with me that Ashcroft is doing more to hurt our
civil liberties than bin Laden ever could.  Ahh, now there is something to
discuss.

> I'll quit my ranting now......the message won't get thru away.

Well, you seem to be assuming the message I am sending is far different from
the one I am endeavoring to express with my words, so it may be safe for me
to say "likewise" :-)

Why must it be so black and white with you?  What happened to the American
idea of being able to disagree with the government peacefully?  To being
able to protest?  You seem far more radical than those in power in some
ways.
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