[Freeciv-Dev] Re: game engine / rapid prototyping mentality

["Brandon J. Van Every" <vanevery@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

From: John Goerzen [mailto:jgoerzen@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
>
> I don't understand this.  If "The Committee" could adapt
> FreeCiv to your
> vision, why could someone else not do so as well?  They have
> no special
> powers, no hidden code.  Every person that could possibly contribute
> code to the freeciv.org FreeCiv could also contribute code to
> their own
> FreeCiv.  Every person that could fix the freeciv.org FreeCiv
> could also
> fix their own FreeCiv, and there's nothing that anybody --
> including the freeciv.org people -- could do to stop it.

The duplication of labor you propose is fairly irrational - unless one
takes it as a given that people's motives are too disparate and they
cannot work together.  In that case it's rational, but expensive.  So
then one asks whether the expense is worth it.

> Point is, you've got good ideas.  I don't know enough to know whether
> they're crap or not right now.  But that doesn't matter.  If
> the FreeCiv
> "committee" thinks they're crap, that matters not one iota to you, the
> developer.  You simply write the code as you normally would, then say
> "hey, check out my BetterFreeciv over here."  Who knows, maybe people
> will see the light after there's code.

Ah, I see.  "Build It, And They Will Come."  Yeah, sure.

No.  First you find out whether people are useful to you or not.  If
they aren't, then you decide whether you're willing to manage an entire
project yourself.  *Then*, you look at whether it's even practical given
the codebase.  *THEN*, you write something.

> Hmm, the point of the GPL is keeping greedy thieves from stealing code
> and not giving their end users the same freedoms that were given to
> them.

FWIW I'm opposed to this kind of GPL ideology.  I'm in the MIT / BSD
camp.  Give away exactly what you're willing to give away, and give it
away completely.  Keep the rest proprietary, and don't get in my way
about what I want to be free or proprietary.  Swallowing a GPL
requirement is a decidedly major decision about what I'm willing to do.
If I was writing a project from scratch, I never would.  But then, if I
was writing a project from scratch it would be Ocean Mars, not a public
project.  Public projects are only valuable if you've got other people
doing work with / for you.

> So you LIKE stealing code now?

You don't read very well, do you?  I've been very clear that any project
I do with Freeciv has nothing to do with Ocean Mars.  Ocean Mars is
based on a spherical hexified icosahedron, of possibly 1.6 million
hexes.  There will be no "city improvements" in Ocean Mars.  I could go
on and on and on about all the reasons Ocean Mars has nothing to do with
Freeciv and never will.

I am a 4X TBS game designer.  I love the genre.  The question is, can I
enable lotsa people's game design desires without too much work?  This
is about Python-based game design advocacy, not my commercial project.
What *I* get out of the project, is "Look at what a stud Python
consultant I am" and "Well, now I've tested some of these game design
ideas.  I will keep / reject them for Ocean Mars."

> Oh, it's just *designs* that you don't like stealing...
>
> Mark me down as nonplussed.

Yeah, I don't like Freeciv developers stealing Civ II designs and doing
none of their own.  Mark me down the same.

> > Why?  Because I love the 4X TBS genre.  And I *hate* the
> > stagnation in
> > the genre.  I hate it so much, I'm writing Ocean Mars.
>
> But not releasing it as GPL?  In that case, I'll never use
> it.  Because
> 1) it is exceedingly unlikely that it will work on my platform,

Hey, I could care less about cranks who think commercial games like Civ
II should run on DEC Alpha and be given away for free so that their
users can change them.  My plan is to make a living, and you can go buy
a PC.  The Alpha is dead, dude.  I say that as one of the world's best
Alpha ASM optimization jocks, in my day.  Very disappointing, but I
buried that sorrow back in 1998 when I quit my job to do what I want.

> and 2)
> because if something about it sucks, *I* can't fix it like I can with
> FreeCiv, and if you disagree about it sucking, then I'm stuck.

You don't even code Freeciv!  This is all some bullshit fantasy of yours
about the perceived need to change everything and anything!  If you told
me you had fixed even *one* thing in the Freeciv codebase, to date, I'd
feel differently.

> > I've played *lots* of Freeciv now.  Aside from multiplayer,
> > what do you think I don't know?
>
> That's like saying "Aside from the United States, Canada, and Mexico,
> I've been all over North America."

Are you telling me that completely different rules systems kick in?
"Warning, Warning! Will Robinson.  We've got multiplayer!"  I think it's
more like, "I've been all over the US, and also to Canada, Guatemala,
Belize, and the Cayman Islands.  It's a lot of North America."

> > Ok, haul out your Dilbert cartoon books.  The disease you
> > have is called
> > the Paralysis Of Analysis.  You are thinking, not doing.
> > Take *ONE* of
> > these anti-ICS ideas and *DO* it.  *Fork* the code into a prototype
> > version.  If it doesn't work, forget about it, try something else.
>
> Funny, that is exactly what you have refused to do.

Yeah, but I haven't been "on the case" for 8 years either.  And as I
said earlier, I always check the Conditions On The Ground before I begin
implementing.  I don't do "Build It, And They Will Come."

> > That's the mentality I'd like to see from you guys.  Not
> > talk, action!
>
> Funny, that's the mentality I've been trying to encourage from you.

I'll take action *if* the Freeciv codebase is usable and productive for
my purposes.  I haven't made that evaluation yet.  If I'd be better off
writing everything from scratch, I'll do so - for Ocean Mars.

And I want to point out something else too.  Nobody around here has said
both, "Yeah, I'm interested in this!" and "Yes, I can code!"  It's not
the most important consideration, but it is a consideration.  If I'm the
only one who wants something, if that's the feeling I get sticking my
finger in the air, then of course I'll be doing Ocean Mars not some
Freeciv thing.

But possibly, it's all lost under the flames.  So I'll wait until the
flames are over, then specify a project if other preconditions have been
met (like the Freeciv source code not being a PITA.)  Maybe with a clear
statement of project intents, someone will pipe up.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.