[Freeciv-Dev] Re: (PR#4468) long term questions

["Horn Gábor" <Horn.Gabor@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi!

> a-l@xxxxxxx wrote:
> > "Horn Gábor" <Horn.Gabor@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>1, generator: the most important. Random is fine, but we'd be very happy
> >>if we could get balanced maps if we need. Now in serious duels we almost
> >>always use referee who check if the map is fair
> >>[...] I also see duel when
> >>8 restart was needed to get an acceptable map.
> 
> The generators 2-4 are specifically intended to be balanced maps. 1 and 5
> are designed to be challenging and more natural in appearance to reflect
> a more realistic simulation with topographical features to be exploited
> or worked around.
> 

It's good they are aimed to be that, but i think in this they only
partially succeed. When 2 player duels who's "skill" is about the same
level, i think it would be nice if their gameplay/strategy would decide
the game, not the map. 

In duels/teams there r not much different "general strategies", in 90
percent everybody does rep->nav->magn (->elect->steel in teams), so the
key is who reaches it earlier. After contact it's about prod domination
an war tactics. W/ unbalanced islands it's normal to get magn 6-8 turns
earlier than the other (which also means more prod because of the faster
expansion). If main islands r not extremely far (we usually play duels
on 50x50 maps), and the first player sends out 3-4 fregattes w/ 3-4
horsemen, he can get 5-6 of the enemies city w/o any real trouble. At
this point difference in prod will be more than 50 percent, one of the
player will have 4-5 cities on enemy's main, who lost his cities on the
front. So the game is 95 percent decided, and the victim had no really
chance. The players expanded/explored for 1-1.5 hours, and the game got
decided in 5 minutes. Not a big fun for the players :) Againts the above
described way, i saw only one usable strategy, which is very risky, and
highly map-dependent again. It's the way of very agressive invasion, so
the player  slows down in expansion after mapmaking by building
trireme+horsemen, and try to find/kill the enemy while that is
unprotected and goes for magn. If the attacker is lucky, and islands are
close, this can compensate unfair islands because the owner of the
better island has no time to fulfill his main and take advantake of the
specials. But this can be a suicide too if the attacker has no close
opponent. 

As i saw in these cases 20-30 percent difference of whales or 1
difference in good surplus start would decide the game. Eg i saw a game
when both the whale nbumber and expansion islands were very close to
each other, the main islands were close, and one of the player has 2
wheat+whale start, the other has only 1 wheat at start, and the referees
suggested restart. If u see this, and compare to tha fact that in gen2
maps 50-100 or even more percent diff in whales are not rare, i think
the fairness could be increased. And i think there are other proofs:

a, almost all the players i played/saw playing duels mentioned that
generator isn't fair enough.
b, in duels we usually have to restart 3-5 times to get acceptable maps.

> > I also agree that's the strongest side of Freeciv, and the most gain
> > is to be had by capitalizing this :)
> 
> I do think it is the case that the minority online gaming people should
> have "fair" map generators or fairness controls, as well as the strategic
> or solitaire gamers have a "natural" or "challenging" map and a good AI
> opponent. Neither should assume theirs is the only important aspect.

I agree, every aspect which makes the game more fun for the players is
important. I only wrote about the online things simply because i know
only these, i never play(ed) againts ai only. But sure, if the
"solitaire gamers" has special needs, opinions etc, that aren't inferior
to ours in any meaning. In fact i'd be glad to read more opinions from
(any type of) gamers!


> 
> [...]
> >>So what do u think about these? Of course i know it's not your duty to
> >>pay attention on these, and i say thank u for the work u have already
> >>done. We enjoy much this game, but maybe together could make it even
> >>better.
> > 
> > 
> > Yeah, players should not be discouraged to post their opinions! And
> > since you don't do so yourself, I should let them know that you are a
> > good competitive player who knows the workings of Freeciv well.
> > 
> > cheers,
> > Arnstein
> 
> It would be a grave mistake to play one type of user off against the other
> when it is not that much more difficult to provide a range of controls that
> can keep everyone happy and more people playing the game.

I agree again, i don't say "drop existing soultions and make only what
we'd like", but "please if possible extend the possibilities to fit our
needs better too". 

Unfortuntelly i have to go now, but i think i'll try think the generator
thing over a bit more, and write down some formulas, maybe those can
help the others too. Afaik Warlock started some work on it too, maybe if
she reads these line she can provide her ideas too.

bye, hirisov