[Freeciv-Dev] Re: Alternative nation dialog

[aliaga <aliaga@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

At 28-02-02 07:33 -0800, you wrote:
> Let me explain my motivations. As I said before, I want distinct civs like
> in Civ 3. Each civ should have its own advantages, and that is simply not
> compatible with 100 civs. Therefore, the list should be pruned.
Hmmm, I think Civ I mode or Civ II mode tend to favor the "big bunch" 
approach, where only names of cities and rulers differentiate the tribes. 
For Civ III why not? As long as I can have the Draka Dominationers 
conquering the Russians and the United States...

> I also find something deeply annoying about no name civs competing with me 
> for world domination.
Just smash them, then :-)


> It doesn't bother me that Japan, England or India are my rivals.
First you conquer the small bits, then go for the big ones, kind of thing?

Anyways, people will always want their (bizarre) choices for playing.


> Lithuania? Where the hell is it on the map?
Ask Lithuanian players, or Lithuania's fans. If you insist that they play 
under some other banner, they can choose to not play with you. End of fun.
Then, as has already been pointed out, why not have Lithuania as world 
superpower and everybody else as the rats in the walls? It's one of those 
nice things in the game!

> no modern nation is descended from the phoenicians.
Directly perhaps not. But there's still the cities they founded and their 
neighbours remember them well enough.

> Including them will satisfy no one.
Except accuracy lovers. Me, for one, would love have them and not the 
bloody Romans as ancient world superpower.
They mapped their whole world with those very sinkable ships they had (you 
know, before that WoW that upgrades them), they linked everybody else with 
their commerce runs, they were the scientifically-minded people when the 
Greeks were still inventing the wheel...

> Only the celebrity civs.
The cities of Biblos, Sidon, Tiro. The first circumnavigation of Africa. 
Discovering the Atlantic and the British islands. Some of the first 
Alphabets, codes of laws, navy, international treaties. Founding half the 
important cities all around the Mediterranean. Things in Mathematics as 
well, I believe... Just ask any History fan or good History book.
I would even say that the real difference between the Civ idea and, say, 
One Must Fall, is that you can get a tribe like that one and do _something_ 
with them. not just play Risk, but write Alternative History. More fun to it.

> Land Area - grab more than 20 % of the world's surface area or rule a
> continent, you are in regardless of any other criteria.
>
> Phoenicians don't meet this. Neither does Spain or Portugal.
If having founded 20+ cities in the Bronze Age and exploring almost all the 
know world does not meet that criterium, then drop that criterium.
If SouthAmerica's surface area does not meet that criterium, then drop that 
criterium.
If Spain does not fit the role of an exploring, conquering, expanding, 
dominating, politicking tribe, then who?

> Spain or Portugal have contributed - what ?
Navigation. Mathematics. Warfare. Diplomacy. Literacy. Religion. 
Civilization. What else is needed?

> Phoenicians came up with an alphabet
> that was independently discovered elsewhere in the world. They're probably not
> even the first to the alphabet. The Indus civ(Indian) was possibly the 
> first to
> phonetic writing. Regardless, writing was discovered independently and often.
Remember the start of the game, when every tribe gets a flavour of the same 
bunch of basic sciences? That's why. :-)
Also, remember that pic in the endgame if you lost? those were ruins, most 
likely, Phoenician ruins. thay played and lost, why not?
In fact, those pesky Phoenicians do meet your other criteria: they get 
credited for the deeds of other tribes, mostly because they are more known.

> Sheer impact on the world - any civ that has left a lasting impact centuries
> later. Spain and Portugal would struggle to make that list.
Subtract 1492 from the date of the USA-Mexico war (remember The Alamo). 
That's more than a century in my defective Pentium. Russia, if counted from 
the Communist Revolution, drops out. USA, if counted from their first 
foreign war (with Spain of all nations!) in 1898, BARELY makes it.
And guess who wins that one, hands down, the damned Phoenicians, with 
milennia to spare.

> The Mongols are a standout as an otherwise crap civ, but they changed the 
> world.
They changed Europe. The Portuguese changed the world when Magellan 
circumnavigated it.

> Indians, ;-). African elephants cannot be tamed. All war elephants are
> asian elephants. Indians were also the first with the battlefield use of
Heh, had forgotten that one. But the Indians did not pit their Elephants 
against Roman Legions and Phalanxes. Annibal the Carthaginian did that.

> rockets and rhinos. Chinese were of course first with the use of rockets 
> as fireworks.
> Oddly enough, Indians also used cheetahs and tigers and lions in warfare 
> as well.
Hummm, would love to see those units in some modpack!


> I don't know anything about Carthaginia. Beyond Hannibal and the Alps, the
> average Freeciver will say, who? Goddamn Romans trashed all the historic
Sadly true. But Carthage was the first naval superpower. Navy tactics where 
invented then and there in the struggle with the Romans. Besides, they 
lasted more than a century too, even if their city list is shorter than usual.

> evidence. Any Civ that was totally wiped out of history could not have 
> been all
> that great. Survival is the first test of greatness.
Ahem, the Romans kept all sorts of records on these their fearsome foes, 
and there's the stones, of course. So wiped they were not. Out of active 
role, could be said.
But the same could be said about the Dinnosaurs, so what? There will still 
be people who like playing against Annibal as well as against Velociraptor, 
or make THEM win against the Romans (or Mammals).

> Spain was important. Add them to the list. Nonetheless, I cannot name the
> spanish contributions to civilisation. What did the spanish add 
> scientifically?
More than a few bits, lets have a random pick over Civ-like things: the 
first hand-portable cannon, the pikemen, the Galleon, the Caravel, the 
Zero, the heavy sword, astronomy, modern-mapmaking, fortresses, the 
explorer unit (the one with the spanish-trademarked helmet), spies, 
Guerrilla warfare, the first Great Depression, the first serious studies 
about those tiny endangered species called neurones and the accoustic 
guitar. :-)

> Not portugal. Their time in the sun was too short.
Say that to victims of the national Brazilian soccer team ;-)

And, more than a century does meet your criteria, so... don't blame them if 
Columbus went to Spain.

> Rockets and rhinos - The Indian civilisation.
And mathematics and manuals of love-making, too...

Oh, and I was not aware someone claimed Israel never made an impact. Wow, 
unless we are forgetting about the ANCIENT Israel tribes, and that size is 
not the only that matters, nobody in the Western Hemisphere of this dust 
rock can claim that Israel has not impacted them.
My 0.02E