[Freeciv-Dev] Re: (PR#13863) Data: Illyrian nation

["William Allen Simpson" <wsimpson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

<URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=13863 >

Daniel Markstedt wrote:
> <URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=13863 >
>>Still looks mostly like a black blob.  Probably because the feathery
>>wing style appears to be Renaissance.  All the early eagles have nice
>>solid wings and bodies on the coins and engravings.
>>
>>Also, the double headed "illyrian" eagle on a yellow flag was Roman
>>Empire (the symbol of the "illyrian" roman emporers and later the
>>Byzantines) taken from the (hittite?) Anatolians.
>>
>>If we cut back the historical period to pre-roman, need a different
>>flag symbol.  The horse seems popular on the coins.  Also the snake.
>>-- 
>>William Allen Simpson
> 
> You could either try to modify the Renaissance-esque eagle to make it 
> more ancient-like, or make a nice horse or snake flag (more work that 
> way, though.) But remember that it's very common in Freeciv to use 
> modern (or renaissance) symbolism for ancient nations' flags, e.g. 
> Egyptian, Persian, Chinese etc etc.
> 
> Cheers
> -Daniel

Here's what I've found out so far, just to record for posterity.

There are good sources showing its use by the "Illyrian" Roman Emperors,
emblem of the Palaeologus dynasty.
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-headed_eagle
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Byzantine_eagle.JPG

Then, it was used by the Russian Tsars (also black on yellow) as a
dubious claim of succession to the Roman Empire.
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Russia_empire.gif

But, it is apparently still in use by the Greek Orthodox Church.
   http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gr-ortho.html
   http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/g/gr_ortdx.gif

Clearly, it wasn't native to the Illyrian region circa 1200-200 BCE.
And it's probably best to avoid an existing usage.

  = = =

The Skanderbeg (circa 1478) use of the double-headed eagle was for
driving out the (Moslem) Turks.

Unfortunately, it has also been taken up as a symbol by the "Stormfront
White Nationalist Community" for driving Moslems out of the region.

And frankly, a lot of the current double-headed eagle usage (Serbian
supra-nationalist) have repugnant connotations in modern times.

Although from this distance (USA), it's vaguely amusing that both the
Albanians and the Serbians are claiming the symbol.

  = = =

While there apparently was a snake "cult" that was prevalent in ancient
Illyrian times, this symbol has been coopted in modern times to tie the
"illyrian" region to the "aryan" region, with no historical evidence.

Again, rather a large war having been fought on the topic, repugnant.

  = = =

However, on one site there are a couple of examples of actual shields
used during the ancient illyrian period:
   http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/Iphikrates1.html
   http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/BalkanPlate.jpg
   http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/BalkanArmour.jpg

Another game group has used these pictures to great effect:
   http://www.twcenter.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-25737.html
   http://img111.echo.cx/img111/1886/factionsicons034cc.jpg

This shows that a historically accurate representation could look very
nice in a shield format.  It should work as a flag, too.

Now all I have to do is learn inkscape....
-- 
William Allen Simpson
     Key fingerprint =  17 40 5E 67 15 6F 31 26  DD 0D B9 9B 6A 15 2C 32