[Freeciv-Dev] Re: Development Strategies

[Justin Moore <justin@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Andrew Sutton wrote:

> by the way. they don't just teach software engineering in school and some of
> us take our _jobs_ seriously because we've been out of school for a couple
> years and realize that things are done differently. this IS what i do. i
> design software to be implemented by myself and others - and given enough
> information on what i'm working, i'm good at it.

   I've worked on commercial products, done open source development,
written my own projects, got my BS in CS, taken formal software
development classes at a very prestigeous university, and am on track to
get my PhD at an even more difficult one.  And you know what?  That
doesn't mean *jack* around here.  I could rattle off a dozen names of
people I know that fit the exact qualifications I just listed, and I
consider those people to be idiots.  Open source is harsh in that you have
to prove yourself through your code.  Anyone can come along and throw
buzzwords around and make all these grand plans, but in the end it doesn't
mean anything until you've proven yourself.

   I'm not commenting on your intelligence, per se, just an (apparent)
naivete about the open source environment.  Feel free (and please do)
prove me wrong.

> i don't know what it is about open source that's so self righteous. there's
> alot of stuff that people do WRONG and could learn from a proprietary
> software houses - linux included.

   I agree 100%.

> it just *happens* to work for linux because
> there are essentially full time maintainers. so don't wave this open source
> flag and tell me that i don't know what i'm talking about or that i take
> "classes" too seriously. maybe the real problem is that some people don't
> take development seriously enough to understand the need for this stuff.

   I take development very seriously.  Which is why I'm spending most of
my time showing undergrads how to develop (not just write, but develop )
basic OS kernel structures, and developing a framework for rewriting a 60+
KLOC research project so as to be extensible and efficient in 50K+ node
data centers.  And I'm sure a large percentage of the people here are busy
doing equally or more impressive projects.

   We (or at least I) am not saying that the open source model is superior
to a software development model, or that the two are mutually exclusive.
I'm saying you need to keep in mind that most of the developers here don't
want to spend 12 hours doing homework and then spend another 2 or 3 at the
end of the day voluntarily doing something that ...  well, that looks a
lot like homework.  I joined this list so I could help people write a cool
game.  I got shot down pretty hard for, well, for some really stupid posts
I made early on by people who know more about some parts of CS than I do
(hi Gaute! :)).

> you know, i used to consider myself a hacker, just like lots and lots of open
> source developers. now i'm proud to say that i'm a product of the corporate
> process and thank god i'm not a hacker.

   Hrm.

> now i just think its sad that
> somebody can write software for a living and defend the idea that you don't
> need a process for a large project. sad.

   It's not that we don't need *a* process, it's just that we don't need
the full mechanism of a process that you're proposing.  I think lots of
your ideas are pretty good.  I think others are crap.  This isn't a black
and white decision (open source vs. formal).  It's taking the parts we
need or that will work for us and using them.

   IMVVHO I think you have a lot to contribute here.  I think we do,
however, need to plant our ideas back in reality before all these lofty
concepts start to manifest themselves as just that: concepts.  To that
extent I'm going to start working on my own development documentation for
v2 and post that to the list when I get a chance.  I'll place my own head
on the chopping block, as it were. :)

Have fun.
-jdm

Department of Computer Science, Duke University, Durham, NC 27708-0129
Email:  justin@xxxxxxxxxxx