[aclug-L] Re: Richard Reid

[John Goerzen <jgoerzen@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Sat, Feb 01, 2003 at 11:27:23PM -0600, Michael Moore wrote:

> Will the USA as we know it come to an end?  Perhaps.  But, comparing us 
> to the Roman Empire is very insulting.  Maybe, you should go back an 
> read your history books.  Last time I checked our Presidents don't come 
> to power by killing the previous President.

Perhaps his analogy was flawed, but I don't think that a simple difference
about ascension to power is enough to show that.

> I don't think people of other Nations hate our freedom.  In fact, I 
> think lots of times we are hated just becuase of our success.

I don't think they hate our freedom either.  I think what they hate is that
we are trying to take away theirs.

Maybe they dislike us because we propped up a repressive dictatorship (Saudi
Arabia) in the Gulf War in the name of saving the mideast from another
repressive dictatorship (Iraq).  Maybe it's because we opposed Pakistan's
illegal coup-installed military government until we decided to wage war on
Afghanistan, and now are propping up another dictatorship.  Perhaps it's
because we used large portions of the mideast as pawns in the Cold War, not
caring about their suffering as long as we could defeat the "Red Menace",
and letting them "wither on the vine" after the Soviets pulled out.  Or
perhaps its because of the history of Western powers to colonize large
parts of the world, enslaving populations and reducing autonomy.  Or maybe
it's because the U.S. is illegally holding thousands of mideasterners
prisoner in Cuba, without our much-lauded rights to due process and a fair
trial.

I'd be mad if somebody did that to me.  I wouldn't lash out and kill people,
but I'd be mad.

And before you try to guess their motives, perhaps you should do some
research and see what they claim their motives are.  Hint: many of them are
mentioned above.

And while you think our interventionist tactics are good, beware that their
current hatred for the US stems from our interventionist tactics, so I see
no real help arising from this.

> >The vast majority of anti-Americanism I have encountered in my life 
> >abroad came from decent, level-headed sincere people. Most of these 
> >people understood that a certain amount of "pushiness" on our part 
> >simply comes with the superpower territory. The world by and large has 
> >been very tolerant of us. 
> 
> Tolerant of Us!!!  Yes, I agree we are the enemy.... NOT.  You make it 
> sound like we are not just an Empire (as you put it); but, and Evil 
> Empire and we must be destroyed.  The more I read what you have written 
> the more I think it was written by Susan Sarandon.

I really couldn't find a call for the destruction of the United States in
his essay.  Perhaps your mail reader is inserting secret text?

> > pushing our global economic agenda to every corner of the world, 
> >always trying to dress it up as "aid" or "development" or "stability" or 
> >"progress". And now we've got enemies like you've never heard of before. 
> >Just like Rome. Of course a Frenchman turning up his nose at an American 
> >tourist putting ketchup on an omlette is different from a terrorist, but 
> >there is a huge sea of negativity towards us--and now it's coming at us.
> 
> I know you have sincere concern  about how we are viewed.  But, how 
> would you change it.  After all, know matter what we do we are going to 
> be hated for it.  You said, we are a mindless growth machine.

By stopping our selfish actions to repress democracy in the mideast for a
start.

> >Once my brother-in-law was confronted by some typical American who 
> >shouted at him, "Why you hate us? Why you call us 'the Great Satan.?" 
> >Mohammed said God works through the spirit and Satan through the 
> >material. So what place on earth is the most materialistic? What place 
> >pushes materialism on the rest of the world?
> 
> We don't push materialism.......we push freedom.  I would be interested 

Then why did Bush tell people to go out and spend money and visit Disney
World?

> to know of just (1) US American who ever said we are triing to help 
> liberate a people in the name of Materialism.  By the way,  you don't 
> have to be materialistic........In the name of freedom you have the 
> choice not to be materialistic.  If you want to make all these people 

Personally doing that is not going to solve the ills of the larger society.

> Okay, so you don't want to make them that happy.  So, how do you solve 
> this problem.  Well, what many Democrats want to do is sit back and do 
> nothing.  Let these terrorist come and destroy us and then the world 
> will be happy.

Actually, most Democrats have been supporting Bush on both of his little war
projects to date, which is a constant source of irratation for some.

> You have got to be joking?  I don't know what kind of sick people you 
> hang out with; but, if they would cheer for dead Iranians you should 

I have heard several.  One of them started this whole discussion.
http://lists.complete.org/discussion@xxxxxxxxx/2003/01/msg00008.html.gz

> Well, this is where you have shown your true colors.  Like the rest of 
> the Left-Wing Liberal Democrats your hatred for Bush is clouding your 
> judgement.  Get over it, Al lost.

FYI, I voted for neither Bush nor Gore in the last election because I
thought both were wrong for the US.

> Frankly, I am insulted by all this policatical rediric you spout.  You 
> would rather sit back, do nothing and put all our lives in jeopardy.

First, please:
dict rhetoric
dict no
dict know

> I am really becoming amazed to see how many liberals there are in this 
> club.  Am I the only conservative in this group?

Opposition to supporting repressive dictatorships is not a position confied
to the liberals.  If it is, I suggest that you should be ashamed to be a
conservative.

> Democrats new moto "Have you hugged a terrorist today?"

I defy you to show me a majority of Democrats in any national body
significantly opposing Bush's war-mongering in any way.  They are no better
than he is.

> Simply Amazing.  Comparing the USA to Natiz Germany.  And comparing Bush 
> to Hitler.

dict Nazi

> Are you sure you posed this to the right place?  I think you are looking 
> for the anti-american news-group.

While this may fly in the face of Godwin's Law, and while we obviously have
not attained that spot yet, there are certain parallels.  I see more
parallels to our shameful treatment of Japanese during prior conflicts.


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