[Freeciv-Dev] Re: Patch: bye bye free city center

["Mike Jing" <miky40@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Paul Dean <Paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I agree with this.  It seems clear that the way to fix freeciv in this 
> regard would be to make the city improvements much more powerful. Opening 
> up ones mind, why not make a library give five times the science rather 
> than 1.5?  Similarly with the other improvements.  ICS has discovered that 
> the benefits of those things are too small.
That's certainly a possibility.  I know it will take more than one patch to 
fix this problem (provided that you think it is a problem at all).
> That's where you miss the point.  It certainly not "nothing more".
> The main part of freeciv is the warfare.  Two people both playing ICS
> strategy at some point go to war.  That's where it gets interesting
> and the skills of the players manifest themselves.
>
> It's just not true.  Your enemy has ironclads, so what?  Let him
> capture a city.  Steal technology from that city and then bribe the
> city back.  Hey presto, you probably now have ironclads too.  Your
> enemy has better production than you, so what?  Form an alliance and
> launch an attack on the enemies capital.  Think of something to
> surprise the enemy.  That's what warfare is about.
Point well taken.  I am fully aware of the importance of warfare (including 
espionage) since you had me beat on more than one occasion with superior 
skills.
> Freeciv is not SimCiv.  It is more than making a nice empire of
> cities, roads and improvements.  It's a war game.  The ICS strategy
> means that new players will lose quite spectacularly until they learn
> to use it.  But after that they will still lose spectacularly until
> they learn to express their creativity in warfare.  But that is OK -
> a game in which new people can compete with experts is a game in
> which there is nothing thing to learn.
Yes, but it also should be more than just warfare.  The problem with ICS 
strategy is that it makes the sim part of the game pretty much irrelevant 
and any alternative stretagy virtually impossible.  I might be wrong here, 
but it is practically impossible to win against ICS unless you start 
building a lot of small cities yourself.  This may be fine and dandy for 
many, but I think players whould at least have a choice as to how the game 
could be played -- SimCiv Or WarCiv.  Now there is no choice because you 
don't stand a chance in hell against an ICS player unless you use ICS 
yourself.
> Now I don't mind getting rid of smallpox, but I wouldn't want the
> game to turn into an 8 hour SimCiv.  Essentially it is a war game,
> and of course *very* few people can often spare 8 hours in a single
> stretch!
I agree that long games are impractical.  But surely we can find ways to 
speed up the game without sacrificing gameplay.  And I do hope Freeciv is 
more than just a war game.  Otherwise, we should just tell those who 
complain about the lack of city development to shut up and learn ICS and how 
to wage war (maybe exactly the point you want to make?).
Mike


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