[freeciv-data] Re: freedata
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Gerhard Killesreiter wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, Reinier Post wrote:
>> It is intended to explicitly nations such as 'Fantasy Netherlands'
>> including cities like include Keulen, Luik and Luxemburg.
> Have those cities been part of the Netherlands at one point in
> history? Then, in my opinion, these are not fantasy Netherlands, but
> historical ones.
> In general I think it is difficult to make a distinction between
> historical and modern nations, if they exist both under the same name,
> since freeciv starts at 4000 B.C.
So why not have a netherland.historic and a netherland.modern?
>> So the idea is, if a Kurdish nation is added, but someone objects to it
>> on the ground that it is not actually a nation,
> Official Turkish policy is to call them mountain-Turks.
It is at least a fantasy-nation, perhaps also historic, I don't know.
>> which is a reasonable
> I do not think so at all. They have a culture, a language, and, more
> important, there exist people who consider themselves as being Kurdish.
> The only thing is that there is no state labelled Kurdistan.
> Do you consider a state to be a neccessary requirement for a nation to
> exist? I do not. There are examples where states did cease to exist and
> later came to existence again, e.g. Poland. Would you say that the Polish
> nation did not exist in the 19th century?
> On the contrary, there (did) exist states, e.g. the former GDR, that were
> states, but, in my opinion, do not have an own nation.
I think, if we were in the 19th century and would be playing with modern
nations, poland would have to be excluded.
>> we (who? the maintainers?) would not claim to be able to determine
>> 'the objective truth' on the issue, but instead we would just withdraw
>> the Kurdish nation. (Same for Taiwan/China, etc.) I am trying to
>> describe the policy that is being followed in practice.
> I do not like it. I would rather like to include every nation that
> somebody wants to be included to be included. And I do think that it is
> possible to decide what is a nation and what is not. Take the existance of
> a language as an example.
I agree with this. We first have to lift the current limit of 63 nations
>> (I think it's this second case that causes problems.)
> Indeed. But what would be the actual problem if the modern nation (or
> rather state) Great Britain included cities that have been parts of the
> British Empire at one time? If somebody plays as Victoria a city of Cape
> Town or New-Delhi would be historically correct. But this would not be
> true if you play as Elizabeth II.
> A possible solution would be to mark cities in the ruleset to be
> allowed for one ruler and not the other. Of course the player could
> override it.
Cannons against Sparrows?
>> Yes, I know. It is impossible to make rules that settle all possible
>> causes for dispute in advance. The idea is to have some rough guidelines
>> that people could consult when they want to contribute nations. It's
> We should make sure that existing freeciv-nations should also conform to
Yes, I tried to accomplish this with my changes of german.ruleset.
>> This is why the rules don't mention anything of the kind.
>> This is implicit in the rules: the default ruleset includes 'Germany',
>> which must adhere to the rules 'modern' nations because its name
>> suggests present day Germany.
> But with Niels' ruleset, only Helmut Kohl and Gerhard Schröder would make
> sense as a ruler. How many people would like to play as them?
What about Adenauer? ;)
> If, however, somebody plays as Bismarck, it would not make sense to
> exclude Königsberg or Straßburg, but to include Wolfsburg.
Therefore I propose that we have two rulesets: one modern, one historic.
I made the changes, because all that I knew about a ruleset-policy was,
that we don't include cities that belong to other nations nowadays.The
second rule I know was about the order of the cities (by size and age),
which I didn't follow, because I haven't got the perl-script that was
made for ordering and because I was to lazy to search for every single
city in my enceclopedia to find the founding date. (If someone sends me
the perl-script, perhaps I'm not to lazy anymore...)
[freeciv-data] Re: rules for nations? (was: [Freeciv-Dev] new german.ruleset), R. Miller, 2001/01/12