[freeciv-data] Re: rules for nations? (was: [Freeciv-Dev] new german.ruleset)

[Gerhard Killesreiter <killesreiter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Reinier Post <rp@xxxxxxxxxx> writes:

> A nation.ruleset, you mean?

Umm, yes.

> After the latest protest (when one of the maintainers told us to
> shut up because 'Freeciv is better off without you') I wanted to
> have a 'Freeciv nations FAQ' which would list rules, on which the
> list members can agree.

Oh yes, I do remember.

Let's make this discussion the start of it.

> Is this a problem if noone else objects to it?

The point is the "if". I expect to find people objecting to it. What
should one do?


> 
> > AFAIR Mussolini is not included in italian.ruleset, but Franco is in
> > spanish.ruleset. This is not consistent.
> 
> Is innconsistency a problem in itself?  Do you object to it?

Yes. I do think that we need general rules that should be applied to
all nations.

>   http://arch.freeciv.org/freeciv-dev-199908/msg00309.html
>   http://arch.freeciv.org/freeciv-dev-199909/msg00001.html
> 
>   http://arch.freeciv.org/freeciv-dev-199909/msg00129.html

These are of a rather technical nature. There where other discussions
but I am too lazy to search. Sorry.

> 
> I propose to adopt the following rules for nations:
> 
> There are three kinds of nations:
> 
>     + modern
>     + historical
>     + fantasy

Ok, sounds good. But we will run into trouble if we want to define a
nation in the first place.

> A nation is 'modern' if its name it suggests identification with a
> nation that actually exists today, unless it is explicitly part of a

nation = state ? What to do with nations without a state
(Palestinians, Kurds, ...)? How should parts of a nation classified
(Bavarians as part of the German nation)?

> historic or fantasy nation ruleset.  Its city names must be names of
> cities that are part of the actual nation today. 

Part of the state that is formed by that nation? Again, what if there
is no state?

> Its rulers must have been rulers of this actual nation at one point
> in time; its flag must be the present flag;

Ok.(But see above.)

> its default ruler must be the present ruler.

We should not require this. Anyway, there is no default ruler at the
moment.

> 
> A nation is 'historical' if it is not modern and its name suggests
> identification with a nation that once existed. Its city names must
> be names of cities that have part of the nation at one point in
> time; the flag must represent a flag or symbol that historically
> represents the nation; its rulers must have been rulers of the
> nation at one point in time.

We basically might have the same problems here.

> A nation is 'fantasy' it is not modern or historic.  There are no
> rules for the names of its cities or rulers.

That was easy :-)

> The policy on matters of actual or historical fact is to allow
> everything in that nobody objects to, but to grant every objection
> that can be said to be based on the rules above.

Hmm, sounds resonable.

> Finally, the nation rulesets distributed with Freeciv must not be
> illegal anywhere.  (As far as I know, this only affects flags.)

Yes.

> For example, at the moment, Hitler is part of the rulers of modern
> Germany; as long as nobody objects, that is fine. An objection could
> be based on the claim that modern Germany is not the same nation
> that Hitler ruled.

I can reverse the argument by stating: If Hitler is a legal
freeciv-ruler of freeciv-Germany, then it should be legal to include
freeciv-cities that have belonged to the state Germany during his
period.

The same argument would apply to anybody from the ancient Kaisers to
Bismarck and Adenauer. (But what about Honnecker?)

Moreover, it would apply not only to german.ruleset, but most European
ones.

But I do not think that modern, i.e. todays, Germany is too different
when it comes to culture from the Germany of say 1900.

> This objection would be strong enough to get him
> removed.

Ok. If somebody raises it.

> It would not get him removed from a 'Historical Germany'
> nation.

Of what time-period? Maybe better leave this to modpacks.

> The nazi flag is disallowed even for a 'Nazi Germany'
> nation, and copyrighted artwork is disallowed as well, but it can,
> of course, be distributed separately from Freeciv.

Yes, there is always this option.

> The names of cities and rulers are expected to be unique within a
> ruleset. 

No Gautestad-syndrome ;-)

>  The code does not actually assume this, so incidental
> violations are tolerated. (One reason to allow this is that the same
> name may refer to different cities.)  It is allowed for two (different)
> names to refer to the same city (eg. Massilia for the Ancient Greeks,
> Marseille for the French).  (The code doesn't know about that anyway.)

This makes sense.

Cheers,
        Gerhard

-- 
Dipl.-Phys. Gerhard Killesreiter <killesreiter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Mit guten Grund ist das Volksempfinden, auch das linke, weltbewahrende
und walfischrettende, keine Grundlage für Entscheidungen unserer
Gerichte.                               Gregor Frowein in d.e.f.b.misc