[freeciv-data] Re: [Freeciv-Dev] Re: fascism patch

[Gerhard Killesreiter <killesreiter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

* "Reinier" == Reinier Post schrieb am Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:04:31 +0200:

> We were discussing whether or not it is a good idea to exclude a
> Nazi nation from the Freeciv distribution.

A »Nazi nation« did never exist. There were only Germans who foolishly 
followed a Fuehrer.

> Steve Hodge asks if I object to all games with swastikas. Yes, of
> course, but I don't intend to hold campaigns against games I would
> never touch. Freeciv however is my favourite game, I love to play it
> and a tiny bit of its code is mine. It's not so much my own
> sensitivity to swastikas that causes me to object, but that of many
> of the people around me, such as my family and some of the people I
> meet playing Freeciv.

I share your point on this. I would not like to appear my name in the
PEOPLE file of a game with nazi-flags.

> Rationally speaking there is no good reason to exclude Hitler from a
> game when Mao and Stalin can stay, or to exclude the swastika when

Hitler is already in there as a German leader.

> the communist flag is in. It's all a matter of perception. To

Where? The Russians got there own flag and the Chinese flag is in
official use.

> Nazis were oppressors from the West, the communists were oppressors
> from the East, and he thinks it's hypocritical to exclude one while
> keeping the other. (The Boers were added to prove this point.) To

The Boers are existing people.

> Germans, their grandparents *were* the evil Germans, they feel
> personal responsibility, and if they forget about it for a minute,

I do not feel personal responsibility for WWII, only to see to it,
that this cannot happen again.

> the other Europeans will remind them. The genocide was committed on

True, see what happens to Austria.

> us, with our collaboration. The war was fought right here at home. 
> Every day I pass the spot where my aunt helped evacuate the remains
> of a hospital bombarded out of existence by British bombers - I
> don't live in Germany, it was a mistake, but it happened
> nevertheless.

> The swastika is a very powerful symbol - the nazis knew their PR -
> and today it symbolizes this past. Therefore, it remains very
> sensitive, especially in Germany.

It is not only sensitive - it is forbidden.

> So there is a difference in perception that I don't think can be
> settled with rational argument. You can only argue "sheesh it's just

Legal arguments are quite rational.

> a game" because Nazism is far enough away from you to allow you to
> do that. The only way I could try to explain this is through
> counterexamples closer to home. A Vietcong nation, or a Klan nation
> with Slavery as its wonder of the world - but all these examples
> would be forced, because Americans and Australians just do not feel
> guilty about their past in the way that many Germans do.

> So much for the rhetorics, what about the consequences?

> I don't think a Nazi nation can be excluded from the Freeciv
> distribution based on arguments of historical reality; it would be a

It can. It never existed.

> gesture to the personal sensibilities of some of Freeciv's users. 
> Not including Nazis is a gesture to Mathias and others; not
> including Taiwan would be a gesture to Mike Jing and possibly
> others; as far as I'm concerned, the Boers will be out as soon as we
> get serious objections from the RSA; and if enough Russians, Poles

I don't see why. They did exist and still exist today. We are more
likely to get objections for using the RSA-flag for the Zulus.

> or others would object to the inclusion of Stalin and communism, I
> feel they would have to go as well.

We should maybe put fascism and communism together into totalitarism
or modern dictatorship. Occassionally you would get a message like
"n citisens of %s City have been identified as beeing evil and sent to 
concentration camps". If this makes somebody happy.

HTH,
        Gerhard