[aclug-L] Asking questions (Was Re: RTFM)

[Jonathan Hall <jonhall@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

There are certian things that need to be done when asking a question.  And
certian things that should be done BEFORE and AFTER asking a question. 
Whether the question be on this list, another list, usenet, ACLUG meetings,
or any other meetings.

For example:


        I am attempting to do X.  When I try to do X, this is what happens:

                [Explain in as much detail as possible or relevant what
                happens.  Include error messages, the exact sequence of
                events, etc.]

        I am attempting to do X with the following software/configuration:

                [List all involved software packages you're using and their
                versions.  If you're not sure if a particular package is
                related, it's better to be too detailed and list it, than to
                leave out the vital info.  Also list relevant hardware that
                may be involved.  Include snippets of any config files if
                relevant, or log files.]

        And here is what I have done to try to solve the problem:

                [List RTFMing if aplicable.  If you could not find a FM, say
                so.  Say how you looked (searched yahoo, looked at LDP,
                etc).  If you've asked the software author and gotten no
                response, say so... If your answer here is NOTHING, then you
                shouldn't be asking the question yet.  At the very least,
                LOOK for an FM first.  If you find it and it's too
                complicated to understand after the first paragraph, then it
                may be okay to ask the question--but indicate that you have
                put SOME effort into finding a solution on your own before
                'bothering' others.]

Now here is a hypothetical example:

-- BEGIN EXAMPLE

        I am trying to get mgetty to accept incomming calls with my modem. 
My modem will answer, and PPP will start, but then will immediately hang up. 
I get only "Receieved SIGHUP" in /var/log/syslog.  I don't know what this
means.

        I am using mgetty version x.y.z under SuSE version x.y.  I'm using
pppd version x.y.z, and an internal USR 56k FAX modem.

        I have read the PPP howto and the mgetty and pppd man pages. 
Neither man page seems to talk about what I need to do, and the PPP howto
section on receiving calls seems to confuse me.

        Where can I find further or more comprehensable information?

-- END EXAMPLE

If you don't know some of the information you need (for instance, where logs
for the affected program(s) are kept), say so.  Say "Where can I find the
logs for pppd or mgetty?".  If you don't know where the config files are
ketp, say so (altho that should typically be mentioned in the man page, if
you've read that--but not always).

In a nutshell, do two things when asking a question:  Describe the problem
or question, and explain what YOU have already done to try to find a
solution.

Doing this will prevent people from saying "RTFM" if there's no manual
available, or if you've already read it.

If you can't find the FM, then perhaps your question should be "Where do I
find the FM?"

Then... if, after finding the FM, you still have questions, come back saying
"I read the FM you suggested, but I'm still having this problem...."


On Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 06:17:51PM -0500, bert wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, Carl D Cravens wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, bert wrote:
> > 
> > > Read The Fantastic Manual . . . 
> > > 
> > > earlier today i read that RTFM is "the key to learning."
> > > i can't concur, as it is only one of the keys to learning.
> > > some people are kinesthetic learners, others are visual
> > > while still others are auditory learners. learning happens
> > > in many ways, shapes, and forms. some of us even learn
> > > from experience.
> 
> most of the time i'm not a good thinker, so learning becomes
> more difficult for me.
>  
> > RTFM = use available resources to answer your question before bothering
> > live people, whether that is a man page, FAQ, mailing list archive or
> > whatever.  If there's a video, that's still an FM. (Fine Manual, BTW :)
> 
> i used fantastic cause it reminded me bs and that's bullshit.
> i've heard fine used and even another, i guess in this case,
> adjective used as well. sometimes common sense isn't all that
> common. some don't consider those without the knack to comprehend
> a bother. presentation adds to comprehension for many but not for
> everyone.
> 
> > The bottom line is, people have made an attempt to make answers to common
> > questions available to *avoid* having to answer those questions over and
> > over.
> 
> i guess this fits into the why you need to know category
> 
> >  To bypass the FM (when you know it's available and don't even
> > bother to look at it) and ask that question is ignorant at best and rude
> > at worst.  Just because one might be an auditory learner doesn't mean one
> > can't read a simple FAQ to see if the desired answer is there.  
> > 
> > You left out an important learning type... the spoon-fed learner.
> 
> and so many more.
> 
> > If it doesn't have an FM, you can't be reasonably told to RTFM.  You get
> > told to RTFM when it's known that there's an FM and you obviously haven't
> > read it.  Some who don't know about your particular flavor might assume
> > that there's a manual that answers your question, and usually he'll be
> > right... but sometimes he'll be wrong.  That's why one should indicate
> > that one has RTFM'd or cannot locate a FM when asking questions... don't
> > leave things to be assumed. 
> > 
> > If someone says RTFM in the tone of "go away boy, ya bother me," that's
> > plain rude as well.  But not everyone is like that and there are far more
> > cases of valid RTFM's than not in my experience. 
> > 
> > > the structures of these flavors doesn't always transfer from one
> > > distro to another. the neapolitan flavor hasn't reached the market
> > > yet. one still gets only one kernel.
> > 
> > Which is exactly the way it ought to be.  Distro fragmentation is enough
> > of a problem, we don't need kernel fragmentation.  
>   
> as recently as 2 months ago, i thought each distro had a different
> kernel.  aclug has helped to explain the various kernels for me.
> 
> 
> > > comprehend the fantastic manual would seem to be
> > > better advice, in most instances. and, again, in most
> > > instances, one needs a mentor or instuctor to help
> > > the apprentice along -- to comprehend -- to reach the
> > > desired goal. of course, an apprenticeship or even
> > > residency is accomplished in tiers or levels and these
> > > do take time.
> > 
> > No problem.  But I'm not going to mentor you if you can't take the time to
> > RTFM.  
> 
> i'm was speaking on comprehension of RTFM here . . . .
> 
> > > since aclug is a linux users group, all the distros
> > > of linux should be embraced rather than pooh-poohing
> > > one version and simply saying RTFM or read the man
> > > pages or i don't use that, so i can't or don't want
> > > to help.
>  
> > If nobody has an answer, nobody has an answer.  You can only ask
> > volunteers to go so far out of their way to help, and you can't make them
> > answer questions they don't know the answers to.  Nobody's obligated to
> > help... they do it out of a desire, not a duty. 
> > 
> > If it's not a distro-specific question, don't mention your distro.
> 
> many newbies don't know how to phrase the question well enough for
> someone to answer, as often they don't know what to leave in and what
> to leave out.
> 
> >  If it is a distro-specific question, accept that nobody your asking may
> > have the  answer.  And for what it's worth, I've seen the Debian
> > power-geeks in ACLUG answering questions about other distros.  
> 
> it's worth a lot. it makes me want to learn debian to take advantage
> of their knowledge, but i haven't installed it yet. i wouldn't be
> running linux at all now if it were not for aclug and its debian
> power-geeks.
>   
> > I'm not a distro snob, but I've used nothing but Debian when it comes to
> > Linux.  I couldn't tell you the first thing about the differences between
> > Debian and even the other major distros like Red Hat.  I started using
> > Debian based on several recommendations for a reliable Linux for an
> > experienced Unix admin and have never had a need to try anything else.  
> > (One doesn't experiment with different distros when running a 24/7 server
> > that's not gone down in over a year for distro-related reasons.)
> 
> so are you using slink now?
> 
> finally here's a question on SMTP or something that appears to be
> computer related, maybe, that i'm not sure where to turn for answers . . .
> .
> 
> when i do an ifconfig eth0 down i can drop my ip address from 
> my isp.  if after the eth0 is down, i can bring it up, and get
> an ip address again, but SMTP (?) doesn't work anymore.
> any suggestions?
> 
>   
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
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