[Freeciv-Dev] Re: the lack of respect for cloners

[Thomas Strub <ue80@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 04:51:26PM -0800, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> From: John Goerzen [mailto:jgoerzen@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >
> > What difference does it make if someone is a "Game Designer"?
> > Professional "Game Designers" do not have a monopoly on writing fun
> > software.
> 
> In single player Freeciv, you haven't written fun software!  You've
> written Civ II, and it's fun-and-not-fun for almost exactly the same
> reasons.

I don't care about the difference to civ II. Why should I? To Civ I
which was the first goal the difference are marginal. So the FreeCiv project
made the little changes which where neccessary to make freeciv able to
read the rules from civ II.
 
> > All this "fat lot you know" and "people at GDC would think this sucks"
> > doesn't contribute to anything but your ego.
> 
> "Fat lot you know" was in direct response to someone claiming that the
> Infocom guys wouldn't get a standing ovation at the Game Developer
> Conference.  It shows a complete lack of understanding of what
> professional Game Designers respect and what they don't.  Here's the
> short course: they don't respect projects like Freeciv that just clone.

Why should i care about the Game Developer Conference (GDC) which isn't
able to programm ONE single game which is playable under LINUX. Ok, that
isn't fair because many games are playable under Linux with some tricks.
But most devolopers don't think about it!

> > Let me point out something: you are obviously wrong.  If you
> > were right,
> > and FreeCiv sucks as much as you say it does, then FreeCiv
> > would not be as popular as it is.
> 
> And this is why they don't respect you.  Because you are taking bows for
> someone else's game design work!  You are simply riding the coattails of
> Civ II's longstanding popularity.  Maybe you get some credit for
> implementing a good multiplayer, I haven't looked at it yet.  But if you
> think you deserve to take bows for the Freeciv game design itself,
> you're a thankless jerk.  We'll be thanking Sid Meier and Brian Reynolds
> for the game design, thank you very much!

Yes the work from Sid Meier was really great, but i think if it wouldn't
be freeciv, another idea would be the ground for a multiplayer game which
makes that much fun. Personally i think Battle Isle or Empire Deluxe
had a much better idea behind, to make a balanced multiplayer game.
Additional i had much fun with the two players mode from Lemmings I.

> > However, complaining about it forever -- without lifting EVEN
> > ONE FINGER to make the matter better -- is.
> >
> > BTW, I do not code for FreeCiv nor do I generally participate in
> > discussions about the game's future.  I'm merely a happy user.
> 
> Wonderful!  I'm so impressed by your Doership!
> 
> I've offered to add Python.  Turned down.

Adding more technology doesn't help. I know a little bit about theory
of programming languages. As far as i know (afaik for an acronym
fetishist like you are) all higher constructs from a language are macros
which can be written in other languages. So, what is the benefit from
languages like python? 

> I've suggested Migration rules.  Rebuffed.

Yes you have suggested, but you haven't tried to modify your modell from
Migration that it fits to the current model of freeciv. As i wrote in
other posts, i'm not averse to your idea. But i think that it can be
improved. But YOU aren't trying to improve your own idea. For me that
indicates that you don't believe your own idea.

> Now I'm forcing the issue of whether this project will ever do anything
> but clone.  I DON'T CARE if some game design idea isn't mine.  I want to
> see SOME KIND OF PROGRESS IN THE GENRE, NOT STAGNATION.

I think when FreeCiv would be only a clone from Civ II, less people
would speak about it. Why should i speak about something that another
person already did? So there are differences. You don't see them. I
don't care about that, because i know that FreeCiv has done something NEW. 
The devolopers are trying to protect that.
 
> And while you continue to contemplate your happy usership, I will be
> implementing Ocean Mars, and possibly even BetterFreeciv.

I would be happy when there would be a game which is satisfying my needs
more than FreeCiv. And i think i'm able to wait decades.

Thomas
-- 
Thomas Strub  ***  eMail ue80@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
jb: people are stupid, they don't want to learn.