[Freeciv-Dev] Re: the lack of respect for cloners

[John Goerzen <jgoerzen@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 04:51:26PM -0800, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> From: John Goerzen [mailto:jgoerzen@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > What difference does it make if someone is a "Game Designer"?
> > Professional "Game Designers" do not have a monopoly on writing fun
> > software.
> 
> In single player Freeciv, you haven't written fun software!  You've

Well, that's rather a non-starter, as I have not written even one line
of code in FreeCiv, as far as I can recall.

> > All this "fat lot you know" and "people at GDC would think this sucks"
> > doesn't contribute to anything but your ego.
> 
> "Fat lot you know" was in direct response to someone claiming that the
> Infocom guys wouldn't get a standing ovation at the Game Developer
> Conference.  It shows a complete lack of understanding of what
> professional Game Designers respect and what they don't.  Here's the
> short course: they don't respect projects like Freeciv that just clone.

Fine.  I don't give a damn, and you have failed to show why I should.

> > Let me point out something: you are obviously wrong.  If you
> > were right,
> > and FreeCiv sucks as much as you say it does, then FreeCiv
> > would not be as popular as it is.
> 
> And this is why they don't respect you.  Because you are taking bows for
> someone else's game design work!  You are simply riding the coattails of
> Civ II's longstanding popularity.  Maybe you get some credit for
> implementing a good multiplayer, I haven't looked at it yet.  But if you
> think you deserve to take bows for the Freeciv game design itself,
> you're a thankless jerk.  We'll be thanking Sid Meier and Brian Reynolds
> for the game design, thank you very much!

I am taking bows for nothing.  I am not a FreeCiv developer.  I am just
a happy FreeCiv user.  (I am a developer, but not for FreeCiv.)  Do not
confuse me for a FreeCiv developer, designer, or anything else; I speak
for myself only, and have made perfectly clear to you that I am not a
FreeCiv developer.

You asked me earlier if I had ever played Civ II.  No, I have not.  It
does not run on my platform, and therefore, I have no opportunity to use
it.

Again, I am not a FreeCiv developer, but I am a prolific Free Software
developer, so bear that in mind for the following comments:

As a Free Software developer, I don't give a damn if somebody is a
professional engineer, a game designer, or whatnot.  I don't care a
great deal if somebody thinks my software totally sucks.  I may listen
to comments and try to improve, but the bottom line is, they paid
nothing for my software and they are free to either throw it away in
disgust or make it not suck.

Some development methodoligies suck.  In fack, I think most of them do.
The Linux kernel development is an unorganized mess.  The OpenBSD kernel
development is a closed mess.  XFree86 development is a mysterious mess.
And that's before we even get to proprietary software, which is often
ten times worse :-)  So saying that FreeCiv developers suck because they
are closed makes no sense to me.  I don't even know whether it's true,
but if it is, I don't much care.

> > However, complaining about it forever -- without lifting EVEN
> > ONE FINGER to make the matter better -- is.
> >
> > BTW, I do not code for FreeCiv nor do I generally participate in
> > discussions about the game's future.  I'm merely a happy user.
> 
> Wonderful!  I'm so impressed by your Doership!

I am not sitting here complaining about it, either.  I am a *happy*
user.  There is nothing for me to do, except perhaps make the server
stop segfaulting on my Alpha.  But I just run it on a PowerPC, so I'm
still happy.

> I've offered to add Python.  Turned down.

WTF do you expect?  Did you have any actual code?

Why don't you just *DO* it?  Hell, I publically offer right now to host
a tla server for you to use to maintain your own FreeCiv tree, to use to
implement these features.  And if the upstream people don't take it,
you'll have a tree ready to use.  If they do, you won't need that tree
anymore.

I love Python.  Python in FreeCiv would be cool.  Where's the code?

I don't understand how you complain that a contribution was turned down
when you HADN'T EVEN WRITTEN IT yet.

We are not Microsoft.  You do not have to get permission from the boss
to hack on code.  You just do what you like.  And if the boss doesn't
like it, you say "f you" and just post it.

BTW, the best way to get "the boss" to like your work is to show him the
code.

> And while you continue to contemplate your happy usership, I will be
> implementing Ocean Mars, and possibly even BetterFreeciv.

If this Ocean Mars thing is GPL'd, I sincerely wish you the best of
luck, and you may find a fan in me when it's done.  The same goes for
BetterFreeciv.

-- John