[Freeciv-Dev] Re: wonder balance (was: Blitzkrieg patch)

[Reinier Post <rp@xxxxxxxxxx>]

On Tue, Aug 01, 2000 at 05:14:08AM -0400, Reed Meyer wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Aug 2000, Reinier Post wrote:
> > The Pyramids are rarely built by experienced players, because
> > 
> >   - early on, it's cheaper to double your number of cities instead!
> >     the Pyramids cost 200 = 5 settlers = 5 cities; more, actually,
> >     since shields will sit idle until the last of the 200 has been spent
> >   - later, there is usually a more interesting wonder to target
> 
> Well, there you go!  There's another example of how variety in
> freeciv/Civ II makes it special.  (I mean, if we didn't have Wonders, 
> we wouldn't have this interesting choice to make.)  Also, a very good
> example of how a Wonder which one player considers a "must have" is
> considered insignificant by another.

Yes, but they are only well balanced if experienced players still feel
they have a choice to make.  For the Pyramids, I feel you have to
adjust a few settings for this to be the case, but not very much.
For the Great Library, and non-eternal wonders in general, it
suffices to slow down research speed, but this also lengthens
the game considerably.

>      (I understand your argument, but I personally still feel that the
> Pyramids are too important to pass up.

I used to feel like that, until I met players who could beat me.
Play a few games on civserver.freeciv.org sometime :)

> > This is good unless you have met the same opponent in your 10 previous 
> > games.
> 
> Solution: don't play the same opponent 10 games straight. :-)

Freeciv needs more players ... if only to find out more about nonstandard
settings and rulesets.

> [...]  To go strictly by your definition, then yes, I would have to
> concede that there are Wonders which could make an already-powerful player
> an instant winner.  But at the SAME token, ANY good decision by the
> powerful player, not JUST building a Wonder, could be enough to finally
> guarantee victory [...]

OK, but if at that point going for the wonder is sufficient, in any
game with those settings, then the game is basically reduced to a race
to get that wonder.  This is the problem that plagued generator 2 and 3
games with Magellan's before 1.11.0.

> > > If the chance
> > > of winning went from 50% to 51% or 52%, which is how I would characterize
> > > even the best actual Wonders in the game, then it's no big deal.
> > 
> > Now that I've read this a couple of times, I realise my confusion:
> > do you mean 50% chance of winning, or an equal chance for all players?
> 
> Sorry about the confusion.  I mean "equal chance for all players".  In
> other words, the examples I was using assumed two players (so, of course,
> an equal chance means 50%).

OK.  Well, in that case, I think it's more important to reduce the chance
of a player who already has more than equal chance to turn into an instant
winner, since that is by far the more common situation.  The wonder should
be an important strategic option, not a surefire way for the leader to
seal victory.

> > I would put the estimate for the best wonders at 10-30%, and they are
> > often built by a player who has a 50% percent chance of winning already.
> > But this depends on the map size.  On smaller maps wonders are much less
> > important.  A greater land mass also helps to balance the wonders, because
> > tactics become much more important.
> 
> That's interesting.  That would be like saying there's an optimum map size
> at which the importance of Wonders is maximized.

It depends on the wonder, of course: the Pyramids' importance increases in
importance with map size and land mass, Magellan's increases with map size
and decreases with land mass, for the Great Lib I really wouldn't know.

> > Yes, definitely, if the game is still in the expansion stage.
> 
> But, the expansion stage is usually near completion by the time Magellan's
> is built, right?

With standard settings and at least 6 players, yes.

> I guess, then, a question is whether the LIGHTHOUSE (as
> opposed to Magellan's!) is an incredibly powerful Wonder.

I feel it is in a position similar to the Pyramids: not worthwhile with
standard settings, but I've seen it used to great effect in games with
slightly different settings.  The effectiveness of the Lighthouse probably
depends greatly on timeout: many-island empires are impossible to defend
with a low timeout.

(Hmm, this should really be on the freeciv list.)

-- 
Reinier