Re: [Freeciv-Dev] Spies, Diplomats veterans etc.

[Stephen Hodge <stephenh@xxxxxxxxxx>]

Greg Wooledge wrote:
> Rizos Sakellariou (rizos@xxxxxxxxxxx) wrote:
> > Although the idea of reducing hp's seems good,
> Yes, indeed!  I really like that.
> 
> > A \ D    Dipl.  VD/Spy Vet.Spy
> > ===============================
> > Dipl.    0.50   0.186  0.064
> > V.D./Spy 0.814  0.50   0.263
> > Vet.Spy  0.935  0.737  0.50
> >
> > (it is assumed that both units start with 10 hp)
> 
> This may seem drastic, but bear in mind that this is generally consistent
> with the military units.  Veteran military units are 50% more powerful,
> and more advanced military units are many times as powerful as their
> less advanced counterparts.  (Consider for example the Catapult and
> the Cannon.  The Cannon attacks at effectively 2.67 times the power of
> the Catapult, and defends at 2x.  And the Cannon is only the *first*
> upgrade to the Catapult.)

Doesn't seem too drastic to me, although I'd have to try it.

> I haven't tried the patch yet, though I have looked through it briefly.
> I'd be inclined to let it stand until/unless playtesting reveals a
> balance problem.

Agreed.

> If anything is to be changed, I'd be inclined to give more of an advantage
> to the "attacking" units in the equal-power case, for three reasons:
> 
>   1) In Civ2, defending Spies/Diplomats are pretty unreliable.  The
>      attacker almost always wins -- way more than 50% of the time.

I have often blocked the computer's Spies/Diplomats in Civ2, but the
computer players don't defend with Spies/Diplomats very often so it's hard
to say.

>   2) The defender can stockpile as many defending Spies/Diplomats as
>      (s)he likes.  They have no upkeep.  Since the attacker must defeat
>      every opponent, (s)he starts at a disadvantage.

I didn't think this applied to Spies/Diplomats. I thought it was one-on-one
contest with the strongest defender, and if the attacker won they got to do
their thing.

>   3) The attacking Spy/Diplomat's real test is getting *to* the city,
>      since it cannot possibly win in combat against any other unit
>      (although it might bribe them under some conditions).  This puts
>      the attacker at still another disadvantage.

I don't think this is a huge factor because Spy/Diplomat's ignore zones of
control. Particularly the Spy with 3 movement points can get through most
situations short of unbroken wall of stacked units. Roads and railroads help
out a lot too, especially in Civ2 where the computer players blanket their
territories with rail.

I think the attacking Spy/Diplomat should have an advantage purely because
of the large part they have traditionally played in the game. If they defend
too well then every one (and this should include the AI) will just stockpile
a spy or two in every city. They only cost 40 after all. That would pretty
much kill off the value of espionage against cities.

Regards,
Steve Hodge