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[Freeciv] Re: [Freeciv-Dev] Re: Re: Fascism patch

[Freeciv] Re: [Freeciv-Dev] Re: Re: Fascism patch

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To: 'Tomasz Wegrzanowski' <maniek@xxxxxxxx>
Cc: "'freeciv-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx'" <freeciv-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "'freeciv@xxxxxxxxxxx'" <freeciv@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Freeciv] Re: [Freeciv-Dev] Re: Re: Fascism patch
From: Patrick Schmid <patrick@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 14:25:42 +0200

> On Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 10:49:24AM +0200, Martin Horsch wrote:
> > > Sorry, but Nazi claimed to be left-winged.
> > > Don't believe SPD propaganda.
> > 
> > That's false. Why do you think the first thing they did was burn the
> > Reichstag and blame the communists for it?
> And who was better to blame ?
> This was most believable version.
And it is NAZI propaganda, that the communists did it. 

> > Why did they forbid all
> > left-winged newspapers? Then, you should consider 
> socialists were sent
> > to the KZ.
> So easily confused by Nazi propaganda ...
> Ok, Nazi fought with Commies.
> But Russian Commies fought with Chinese Commies, and
> were one of them right-winged and second left-winged ?
> No.
Sorry, but which propaganda were you fed?

> Totalitarians always try to show how they differ from each other,
> but Nazi WERE socialists, and have never denied it.
That's just not true, they were nationalists (look up both definitions for
the difference)

> They fought against Commies because they were potentially 
> dangerous opposition.
> It has nothing to do with ideology, as both their ideologies were
> the same in essence.

> > > That's exactly EU position in EU-expand negotiations.
> > > Is EU fascist country IYO ???
> > 
> > Hitler *never* mentioned foreign workers taking away the 
> Germans' jobs
> > (simply because there was such a little number of them), only the
> > Jewish, who weren't foreigners btw.
> Jewih, immigrants, what's the diffrence ?
> Enemy is someone DIFFERENT in your country.
> Especially, ethnically different.
Yes, that's true. That's what I meant with foreigner.

> > Most EU countries are governed by the neoliberalists 
> presently. I don't
> > reccomend comparing them with fascists. I think Poland will become a
> > member soon, only the Union has to undergo several changes regarding
> > its interior structures (eg. majority decisions instead of 
> consensus).
> Are they so liberal ?
> Agree, they are usually less leftish than decade or two before,
> but they are still :
> nationalist :
>   how many foreigners can get .EU passport per year per EU citizen ?
>   compare it with .AU or .CA
I know that this is a problem in the EU. But it doesn't mean the EU is
nationalistic. If you compare it with the number of how many refugees, ...
are accepted in the EU each year (especially in Germany, which for example
during the Kosovo war accepted roughly the same number of refugees as all
other EU countries together).
The problem of the EU is, that we don't have an immigration policy yet. The
countries you mentioned, and I have to add the US to this list, do have had
immigration laws for a long time.
If you wonder, why this hasn't took place in the EU yet, then please ask
yourself for how long we have real peace in Europe. And can you imagine, how
difficult a topic like an immigration law is to discuss in Germany (the
largest EU member)? If you say only one thing about limiting immigration for
one group of people (for example, do it like the US and set maximum numbers
for all countries), then you are very close to be viewn as a NAZI in the
media and in other countries.

> socialist :
>   In most EU countries, state took over : education, health system,
>   roads, alcohol, drugs, agriculture, mining, fishery, weapons,
>   cross-border communication, post offices, rail transport,
>   radio broadcast, building, energy production, air transport,
>   car making, food processing, security, and much much more
Education, Roads, Security are some of the main tasks of a nation state. 
Health care is also a main task of a state, but I have to agree with you, it
is especially common in Western Europe (historic reasons. Germany had a
public health care system for a very, very long time).
All the other things are in most cases privately operated nowadays. Some of
the bigger companies, for example in the telecommunication, rail and post
sector are not yet completely private, but almost every government in the EU
has a plan of how to make them privately owned in the next few years.
>   In some of EU states, you can't even have shop open after 8 pm,
Unfortunately. In Germany it's an old law and discussions are going on to
just delete it.

>   and most workers are paid by group aggrements.
That's called free market, because not the state negotiates the group
agreements (then it would be socialistic), but the two parties do that. With
parties I mean the representatives of the employers and of the employees.
Naturally if the government is the employer it is one of the parties and
negotiating with the representatives of the employees...

>   And budget is some 40-50% of GNP.
Show me an industrialized country where this is different.

>   All for socialist redistribution.
> Stiil don't see ?
> I don't claim they are similar to what real Nazi did 
> (Holocaust and such)
> I claim that their ideology is largely compatible.
Sorry, you must be living on another plant than I do.

> > > So, Germans are so well informed ...
> > > How much of Germans could say of their heads number of 
> people died in
> > > WWII and Holocaust with accuracy +- 10% ???
Well, how many do you think?

Patrick Schmid
Microsoft Certified Professional
Email: patrick@xxxxxxxxxxxx
PGP DSS4096 (0x6574B3BC): BD18 A298 94D9 DC00 B0BB  716B 78C4 3488 6574 B3BC

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