[freeciv-data] Re: family klan & freeciv techtree (was: Sail River: Next Step)

[Erik Sigra <freeciv@xxxxxxx>]

Michael Kiermaier wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Erik Sigra" <freeciv@xxxxxxx>
> To: <freeciv-data@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 10:04 AM
> Subject: [freeciv-data] Re: family klan & freeciv techtree (was: Sail River:
> Next Step)
> 
> > > > It is far from complete. I started with the very earliest techs. In
> the
> > > > nomadic age, the unit called 'Family Klan' is the most important (and
> > > > only) unit.
> > >
> > > good idea!
> > > if i understand correctly, a 'family klan' cannot build a city at the
> > > beginning of the game, right?
> >
> > It would require 'Stationary Living'. If the user selects to start in
> > the stationary age, he would get all the neccessary techs.
> 
> how is city building done? i can imaging the following possibilities:
> 
> *after the discovery of 'Stationary Living' every klan can build a city.
> this is not very good in my opinion, because there will be lot of new cities
> at once. but in my opinion the number of cities should be very low first and
> then grow not faster than in civ2. furthermore, this are very cheap cities
> compared with cities built by settlers, so everyone would grow as many klans
> as possible and then switch them to cities.
> 
> *since a family klan represents about 50 people and a city at least 10.000
> many klans should be needed to build a city.
> my suggestion is:
> build a city like a city enhancement within one family klan. this klan
> cannot move any more. the production units used are the hitpoints of the
> klan. other klans can contribute their complete hitpoints to this project
> (like caravans contribute their production value to wonders). the costs for
> a city should be so high that a experienced player is able to build at most
> 3 cities when he discovers 'Stationary Living'.
> It may be advantageous to keep some klans which "breed" klans for new
> cities. but since they need a lot of place this will be harder and harder
> while city expansion goes on. i think is is quite realistic that family
> klans and cities live side by side for a certain period of time.

As the help text for family klans says, they can build villages after
the discovery of stationary living. It seems stragne to just skip the
whole rural time and go directly from nomadic age to city age. I have
not yet worked out how the transition is to be done. Maybe there should
be an intermediate stage called village, that can only use 9 squares.
 
> should family clans be obsolete by settlers ??

Family klans will always split in two family klans when they grow. When
your last family klan has become stationary, you will have no more of
them. You could keep some in a reservation as tourist attractions if you
want :-) People who are used to the virtues of stationary living will
never go back to a nomadic life.

There could be an optional rule that family klans that you haven't
settled a number of turns after the discovery of "Stationary Living",
settle themselves.

> i do not like the concept of settler units, because settlers have two
> completely different functions:
> *they represent refugees, emigrants or real settlers since they represent a
> big number (at least 10.000) of people looking for a new place to live.
> 
> *they represent engineers or pioneers since they can bulid terrain
> enhancements.
> 
> i suggest that there should be two different groups of units for this two
> functions:
> 
> *emigrant units (first unit in techtree: [0,1,1], i think a mass of 10.000
> people should be able to defend itself). emigrants should cost at least 30
> units because expansion should be not to fast. new emigrants decrease city
> size by 1 and need food (& shields ??) for upkeep.
> 
> *pioneer units (first unit in techtree: [0,0,2], they need one shield for
> upkeep and their production value is about 40.)
> 
> what do you think about that?

That is what I think too. I liked the system used in Alpha Centauri
better than the civ system. There is a "Colony Pod" and a "Terraformer".
And the units are modularized. I really hope Freeciv will remerge with
the FreecivAC project soon.

In AC, the units had the following modules:

Reactor, Chassis, Weapon, Armour and 2 special abilities.

Reactor is perhaps not useful for civ style rulesets.

For example:
* A caravan could have chassis="Camel" and weapon="Trade Module".
* A warrior could have chassis="Infantry" and weapon="Sword".
* An Engineer could have chassis="Infantry" and weapon"Terraforming
Module".
* A Horsemen could have chassis="Horse" and weapon="Sword".
* A Horse Archer could have chassis="Horse" and weapon="Bow"
* A Paratrooper could have chassis="Infantry", weapon="Machinegun",
armour="Bulletproof" and special ability1="Paradropping"

New technologies would not allow new units but instead new chassis and
weapons. The user would then design the units in the unit workshop. Some
standard units would be autodesigned, just like in AC.
 
> > > btw, how is research done without a city?
> >
> > Advance in knowledge would be balanced against growht. The user could
> > set a percentage with a scrollbar. A family klan's food surplus could be
> > used either to feed thinkers (not simulated explicitly) so they can
> > invent for a while and not bother about gathering food for a while. Or
> > it could be used to feed children. This would be an interesting game
> > choice.
> >
> > > > [family_klan] ;(unit)
> > > > name=_("Family Klan")
> > > > req1=family_klans
> > > > vision=city_radius
> > > i think this is too much. all ground units have vision=1.
> >
> > They must have that much vision because cities have that much vision.
> > Family klans are able to use that area, so they should see it to.
> 
> i think vision should be 1. maybe tricky players will keep some klan units
> for guarding issues otherwise. i think the usable area should be smaller,
> see below...

Yes, since you convinced me to decrease the number of used squares to at
most 9,  I can lower the vision too.
 
> > > > movement=1
> > > > help=_("The player gets 1 (can be changed) family klan at the
> beginning
> > > > of the game. Family klans wander around hunting, herding animals,
> > > > burn-beating, fishing. Splits in 2 when its hitpoints reach 100%. Can
> > > > attack and exchange knowledge with family klans of other
> civilisations.
> > > > Family klans gets their food from a living space around their
> location.
> > > > This space has the same wellknown shape as that of a city. A family
> klan
> > > > that has exclusive access to klanterritorysize (14 at the beginning)
> > > > tiles barely survives.
> > > i do not understand. needs a family klan 14 unused (non-ocean?) squares
> > > within the 21 city-radius squares?
> >
> > Yes, they need 14, but that can be reduced with advance in knowledge.
> > Inventing Boat Building lets them use ocean squares near land. This is
> > intended to simulate the fact that nomadic people in the real world are
> > very spread out (few people/landarea).
> 
> what do you think about a usable area of 5 cross-shaped squares instead of
> 21?
> they need to use 4 of these squares to survive. the nomads are still very
> spread out (only 50 people use 4 squares, in a city 10.000 or more use 1!).
> 
> and consider this effect, especially to novices, when the first city is
> build: wow, i can use 21 sqares. cities are really a powerful invention !!
> 
> i think 5 sqares are better than 9 (3x3), since then the klans could be
> positioned in a way that every sqare belongs to exactly 1 klan.

I can position the klans so that every square belongs to exactly 1 klan
with 9 square system:

@@@XXXEEESSS
@@@XXXEEESSS
@@@XXXEEESSS
OOO»»»...BBB
OOO»»»...BBB
OOO»»»...BBB
TTT;;;ÅÅÅLLL 
TTT;;;ÅÅÅLLL 
TTT;;;ÅÅÅLLL

as well as with the 5 square system: (try it on squared paper if you
don't believe me)

       X
     @XXX
   »@@@XE
 T»»»@;EEE
TTT»B;;;ES
 TOBBB;ÅSSS
 OOOB.ÅÅÅS
  OL...Å
  LLL.
   L

so it could be 5 and 9 equally well. I think I will make it 5 or 9
instead of 21.

> furthermore, why not make differences between different kinds of terrain?
> for instance, animal specials (phesant, buffalo, game, ...) could give an
> additional food point after the discovery of hunting.
> ocean (as you said) and river squares give 1 additional after the discovery
> of boot building
> ...
> glacier, mountain, maybe also swamp, tundra, hill and jungle squares give no
> food.

Yes, I was planning to make differences between different kinds of
terrain.
 
> > > since 'family klans' are thought to be nomads i think there should be a
> > > reason for them to move around and not to stop when they have enough
> sqares.
> >
> > The reason for them to move around is that they need so many squares.
> > Suppose a civilisation is expanding radially. Even if the outer klans
> > have the squares they need, they will want to move because of the
> > pressure from new klans appearing in the middle regions. This may be how
> > humans once spread over our world.
> 
> right. it sounds very good this way, because family klans will move without
> the must to do so.
> ~michael

Erik