[freeciv-data] Re: family klan & freeciv techtree (was: Sail River: Next Step)

["Michael Kiermaier" <michael.kiermaier@xxxxxxx>]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik Sigra" <freeciv@xxxxxxx>
To: <freeciv-data@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 10:04 AM
Subject: [freeciv-data] Re: family klan & freeciv techtree (was: Sail River:
Next Step)


> > > It is far from complete. I started with the very earliest techs. In
the
> > > nomadic age, the unit called 'Family Klan' is the most important (and
> > > only) unit.
> >
> > good idea!
> > if i understand correctly, a 'family klan' cannot build a city at the
> > beginning of the game, right?
>
> It would require 'Stationary Living'. If the user selects to start in
> the stationary age, he would get all the neccessary techs.

how is city building done? i can imaging the following possibilities:

*after the discovery of 'Stationary Living' every klan can build a city.
this is not very good in my opinion, because there will be lot of new cities
at once. but in my opinion the number of cities should be very low first and
then grow not faster than in civ2. furthermore, this are very cheap cities
compared with cities built by settlers, so everyone would grow as many klans
as possible and then switch them to cities.

*since a family klan represents about 50 people and a city at least 10.000
many klans should be needed to build a city.
my suggestion is:
build a city like a city enhancement within one family klan. this klan
cannot move any more. the production units used are the hitpoints of the
klan. other klans can contribute their complete hitpoints to this project
(like caravans contribute their production value to wonders). the costs for
a city should be so high that a experienced player is able to build at most
3 cities when he discovers 'Stationary Living'.
It may be advantageous to keep some klans which "breed" klans for new
cities. but since they need a lot of place this will be harder and harder
while city expansion goes on. i think is is quite realistic that family
klans and cities live side by side for a certain period of time.

should family clans be obsolete by settlers ??


i do not like the concept of settler units, because settlers have two
completely different functions:
*they represent refugees, emigrants or real settlers since they represent a
big number (at least 10.000) of people looking for a new place to live.

*they represent engineers or pioneers since they can bulid terrain
enhancements.


i suggest that there should be two different groups of units for this two
functions:

*emigrant units (first unit in techtree: [0,1,1], i think a mass of 10.000
people should be able to defend itself). emigrants should cost at least 30
units because expansion should be not to fast. new emigrants decrease city
size by 1 and need food (& shields ??) for upkeep.

*pioneer units (first unit in techtree: [0,0,2], they need one shield for
upkeep and their production value is about 40.)

what do you think about that?

> > btw, how is research done without a city?
>
> Advance in knowledge would be balanced against growht. The user could
> set a percentage with a scrollbar. A family klan's food surplus could be
> used either to feed thinkers (not simulated explicitly) so they can
> invent for a while and not bother about gathering food for a while. Or
> it could be used to feed children. This would be an interesting game
> choice.
>
> > > [family_klan] ;(unit)
> > > name=_("Family Klan")
> > > req1=family_klans
> > > vision=city_radius
> > i think this is too much. all ground units have vision=1.
>
> They must have that much vision because cities have that much vision.
> Family klans are able to use that area, so they should see it to.

i think vision should be 1. maybe tricky players will keep some klan units
for guarding issues otherwise. i think the usable area should be smaller,
see below...

> > > movement=1
> > > help=_("The player gets 1 (can be changed) family klan at the
beginning
> > > of the game. Family klans wander around hunting, herding animals,
> > > burn-beating, fishing. Splits in 2 when its hitpoints reach 100%. Can
> > > attack and exchange knowledge with family klans of other
civilisations.
> > > Family klans gets their food from a living space around their
location.
> > > This space has the same wellknown shape as that of a city. A family
klan
> > > that has exclusive access to klanterritorysize (14 at the beginning)
> > > tiles barely survives.
> > i do not understand. needs a family klan 14 unused (non-ocean?) squares
> > within the 21 city-radius squares?
>
> Yes, they need 14, but that can be reduced with advance in knowledge.
> Inventing Boat Building lets them use ocean squares near land. This is
> intended to simulate the fact that nomadic people in the real world are
> very spread out (few people/landarea).

what do you think about a usable area of 5 cross-shaped squares instead of
21?
they need to use 4 of these squares to survive. the nomads are still very
spread out (only 50 people use 4 squares, in a city 10.000 or more use 1!).

and consider this effect, especially to novices, when the first city is
build: wow, i can use 21 sqares. cities are really a powerful invention !!

i think 5 sqares are better than 9 (3x3), since then the klans could be
positioned in a way that every sqare belongs to exactly 1 klan.

furthermore, why not make differences between different kinds of terrain?
for instance, animal specials (phesant, buffalo, game, ...) could give an
additional food point after the discovery of hunting.
ocean (as you said) and river squares give 1 additional after the discovery
of boot building
...
glacier, mountain, maybe also swamp, tundra, hill and jungle squares give no
food.

> > since 'family klans' are thought to be nomads i think there should be a
> > reason for them to move around and not to stop when they have enough
sqares.
>
> The reason for them to move around is that they need so many squares.
> Suppose a civilisation is expanding radially. Even if the outer klans
> have the squares they need, they will want to move because of the
> pressure from new klans appearing in the middle regions. This may be how
> humans once spread over our world.

right. it sounds very good this way, because family klans will move without
the must to do so.
~michael