[freeciv-data] Re: family klan & freeciv techtree (was: Sail River: Next Step)

[Erik Sigra <freeciv@xxxxxxx>]

Michael Kiermaier wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Erik Sigra" <freeciv@xxxxxxx>
> To: <freeciv-data@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 8:30 PM
> Subject: [freeciv-data] Re: [Freeciv-Dev] Re: Sail River: Next Step
> 
> > Speaking of tech trees, here is a tech tree I started to design a while
> > ago. It starts in the nomadic age, but players can choose to start in
> > the stationary age if they want to play more like they do now. The they
> > would get all the techs marked as nomadic.
> >
> > It is far from complete. I started with the very earliest techs. In the
> > nomadic age, the unit called 'Family Klan' is the most important (and
> > only) unit.
> 
> good idea!
> if i understand correctly, a 'family klan' cannot build a city at the
> beginning of the game, right?

It would require 'Stationary Living'. If the user selects to start in
the stationary age, he would get all the neccessary techs.

> for the reason that it would be somehow disadvantagous or that city building
> requires a certain tech?
> btw, how is research done without a city?

Advance in knowledge would be balanced against growht. The user could
set a percentage with a scrollbar. A family klan's food surplus could be
used either to feed thinkers (not simulated explicitly) so they can
invent for a while and not bother about gathering food for a while. Or
it could be used to feed children. This would be an interesting game
choice.
 
> > [family_klan] ;(unit)
> > name=_("Family Klan")
> > req1=family_klans
> > vision=city_radius
> i think this is too much. all ground units have vision=1.

They must have that much vision because cities have that much vision.
Family klans are able to use that area, so they should see it to.
 
> > movement=1
> > help=_("The player gets 1 (can be changed) family klan at the beginning
> > of the game. Family klans wander around hunting, herding animals,
> > burn-beating, fishing. Splits in 2 when its hitpoints reach 100%. Can
> > attack and exchange knowledge with family klans of other civilisations.
> > Family klans gets their food from a living space around their location.
> > This space has the same wellknown shape as that of a city. A family klan
> > that has exclusive access to klanterritorysize (14 at the beginning)
> > tiles barely survives.
> i do not understand. needs a family klan 14 unused (non-ocean?) squares
> within the 21 city-radius squares?

Yes, they need 14, but that can be reduced with advance in knowledge.
Inventing Boat Building lets them use ocean squares near land. This is
intended to simulate the fact that nomadic people in the real world are
very spread out (few people/landarea).
 
> >Any more will give a surplus and increase the
> > hitpoint each turn. Any less will decrease the health and possibly kill
> > the unit if the hitpoints drops to or below 0. When a family klan moves,
> > it will get the new tiles it discovers unless they already belong to
> > another family klan. You can redistribute the tiles among your family
> > klans by pressing 'r' when a family klan is selected, and then clicking
> > the tile that should belong to that family klan. If this causes another
> > family klan to get fewer than klanterritorysize tiles, it will be marked
> > with an icon so you can adjust that (by moving it or by claiming
> > territory for it) before the enf of the turn. Movement is inconveinent
> > because the family klans have to carry all their things (and their
> > children) with them, or they have to make new things at their new
> > site.")
> 
> since 'family klans' are thought to be nomads i think there should be a
> reason for them to move around and not to stop when they have enough sqares.

The reason for them to move around is that they need so many squares.
Suppose a civilisation is expanding radially. Even if the outer klans
have the squares they need, they will want to move because of the
pressure from new klans appearing in the middle regions. This may be how
humans once spread over our world.
 
> i really like the idea of an enhanced freeciv techtree. but i think there
> should be more mathematical advances. my suggestion:
> 
> [advance_counting]
> name     = _("Counting")
> req1     = "None"
> req2     = "None"
> flags    = ""
> 
> [advance_calculating]
> name     = _("Calculating")
> req1     = "Counting"
> req2     = "Writing"
> flags    = ""
> 
> i renamed the advance 'mathematics' to 'calculating', since i wanted to use
> the term 'mathematics' for higher mathematics.
> 
> [advance_geometry]
> name     = _("Geometry")
> req1     = "Calculating"
> req2     = "Compass"
> flags    = ""
> 
> map making shoud require geometry instead of compass.
> geometry could be required by engineering.
> 
> [advance_the_zero]
> name     = _("The Zero")
> req1     = "Calculating"
> req2     = "None"
> flags    = ""
> 
> it was a very important scientifical step to use the number zero. if people
> had started to count the years ad with zero instead of one, there would not
> have been the problem that the millennium actually changes with the
> beginning of the year 2001.
> 
> [advance_mathematics]
> name     = _("Counting")
> req1     = "The Zero"
> req2     = "Philosophy"
> flags    = ""
> 
> first mathematicians where also philosophers (phythagoras!) and so i think
> (higher) mathematics should require philosophy and not vice versa.
> 
> [advance_astronomy]
> name     = _("Astronomy")
> req1     = "The Zero"
> req2     = "Astrology"   (or maybe geometry ??)
> flags    = ""
> 
> i changed req1 from mathematics to the zero, because:
> *mathematics should stand for more abstract mathematics (number theory for
> example) which is not needed by astronomy.
> *the anciant greek number system did not contain the zero, but the
> babylonian did. greek astronomers translated their numbers into the
> babylonian system, did their astronomical calculations and translated the
> result back to the greek system. therefore the zero is important for
> astronomy.

Yesterday when I was looking at my tech tree, I also thought that more
mathematical techs were needed. I called the first one "Numerics" but
maybe your "Counting" is better. Your other math techs are good to.
 
> please feel free to correct and improve my english.

I actually understood it all.

> ~michael

Erik