[aclug-L] Re: CS Degrees (Was: Re: Cool new fan site....hehe)

["Jeffrey L. Hansen" <jlhansen@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Funny you should mention picking up knowlege from a book without the
assistance of an instructor.  That's been my entire experience with the
WSU CS dept.  My UNIX instructor screwed me with his grading because he
was incapable of getting his point across and was frequently completely
wrong with the information he did convey.  I've got to live with a C now
in a class I earned an A in.  Most of my CS education was gained at Cal
State (Dominguez Hills) and the difference was night and day.  It's a
really small school but manages to get good instructors and is even
accredited now.  It will be a miracle if WSU can get accreditation with
the Mickey Mouse approach they have to education.  The facilities largely
suck and so do the instructors (to a large degree).  If one is adept to
reading the book with little or no illumination from the teacher then they
might succeed at WSU.  The other successful group, as mentioned by someone
earlier, is to work in groups and share ideas.

On Fri, 14 Apr 2000, Jonathan Hall wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 09:31:45PM -0500, John Goerzen wrote:
> > Jonathan Hall <jonhall@xxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
> > 
> > > Being knoweldgable in the area of computers or Unix specifically is not
> > > "magic."  You cannot become proficient at school.  You become proficient 
> > > at
> > > home, or on the job.
> > 
> > There are things that are taught at school that you do not necessarily
> > pick up at a job.  Where was the last job that gave you on-the-job
> > training of how to construct a linked list, a hash table, or a LZW
> > compression algorithm?  Or told you why you might use shutdown()
> > instead of close()?  Few do.  These are also non-obvious things that
> > will not immediately reveal themselves to someone.
> 
> I actually learned to impliment linked lists long before taking any computer
> class of any sort--by reading books I found at the library.  Hash tables,
> LZW compression, etc, are all 'techincal' things that can easily be learned
> by reading books without the help of an instructor.
> 
> 
> > What else do you learn that is of value?  I really enjoyed my
> > philosophy classes, especially the one on Ethics and Computers.  And
> > if you are planning on learning THAT on the job, you are sorely
> > mistaken.  It gives you a broadening of horizons that you will not get
> > on the job.
> 
> Certianly there are things that college (or other forms of formal education)
> can help with.  Most of them are not techincal.  I think a strong case could
> be made that ethics in computers really is not knowledge that is needed to
> write good code.  And anybody with strong ethics will apply them to his
> programming or business practices anyway.  I'm not saying that the class is
> not of value--just that it's not essential.
> 
> 
> > > In some areas, a degree is needed... I want my doctor or dentist to have a
> > > degree!
> > 
> > What is unique about certain areas?  Note that computer programmers
> > sometimes write programs that people's lives depend on.  Or more
> > frequently, millions or even billions of dollars ride on.
> 
> The difference is that (in the U.S. anyway) a doctor gets hired if he has a
> degree with little or no other testing or qualification checks.  A computer
> programmer usually has to back up his degree with experience... or... if he
> gets hired w/o experience, he may not keep his job long.  Also, a mistake by
> a computer programmer it can (usually) found before the product is
> released--if proper beta testing and debugging is performed.
> 
> If your doctor or dentist makes a mistake, it may be irrepairable, possibly
> resulting in life-long pain, scaring, possibly even death.
> 
> 
> > > If/when I'm ever hiring Unix admins, though, I doubt a degree will be all
> > > that important to me.  In fact... in my experience, a degree can sometimes
> > > hurt someone's creative problem solving abilities.  People with "formal"
> > > training are more likely to go "by the book"--that can be good, or bad.
> > 
> > CS programs, at least, encourage creataive and unique solutions to
> > problems.
> 
> Not in my experience.  :-)  One CS instructor at WSU in particular marked my
> assignments down b/c I was "too creative" (my words--not hers).  I was
> discredited because my program exceeded the assignment's requirements. 
> Granted an entire CS field or even a department cannot be judged by the
> actoins of a single professor...  But that really says little about the
> credibility of whoever hires instructors for the WSU CS department, IMHO.
> 
> 
> > So where does that leave me.  You might be thinking "ahh, but he's
> > being hypocritical" thoughs.  Yes, I do not have a degree.  I do
> > intend to get one.  I do not need it for getting a good job.  I want
> > it because of the knowledge that I gain.
> 
> And that's fine... If the knowledge and experienced gained by attending
> college is of use to you, by all means go for it.  My point is simply that
> that knoweldge and experience is not all it's cracked up to be for everyone.
> 
> Knowledge CAN be gained from college.  But a degree does not mean that you
> have gained that knowledge.
> 
> Basically... The presence or absence of a degree has no bearing on an
> individual's knowledge or competence level in a specific area.
> 
> You have morons with degrees just as you have those without degrees.
> 
> You also have very intelligent, compitent people with degrees as well as
> those without degrees.
> 
> 
> --
> Floppy disk tip #5: Data access time may be greatly improved by cutting more
> holes in the diskette jacket.  This will provide more simultaneous access
> points to the disk.
> --
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