[Freeciv] Re: [Freeciv-Dev] Fascism patch

[Tomasz Wegrzanowski <maniek@xxxxxxxx>]

On Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 03:28:56AM +0200, Patrick Schmid wrote:
> I'd like to contribute my thoughts to this discussion too. As my email
> address shows, I'm German.

Contrary to what my email shows, I'm not American ;-)

> I hate it, because of what it did: 
> First we have the organized mass murder of Jews, Communinsts, enemies of the
> NAZI-regime, handicaped people, social minorities and so on.
> Second it used millions of slave workers (mostly from East European
> countries), who were according to NAZI ideology people of a lower class and
> therefore should be exterminated, but they were in a higher class than those
> who were systematically murdered and so they were to be killed by slave
> work.
> Third. Do you know how many people died in WWII, which Germany begun? Not
> only soldiers, but millions of non-combatans. I think Russia only lost about
> 30 millions of people.

The same about Commies in Russia.
Whan Russian care ?

> In addition, if there is a case of radical right-wingness, [...]

Sorry, but Nazi claimed to be left-winged.
Don't believe SPD propaganda.

> 2. Fascism in general
> Fascism is a radical form of nationalism. It is an easy way to mobilize
> masses. It is just too attractive, if you get offered someone who is
> responsible for your problems. "You lost your job? Well, this foreigner took
> it."

That's exactly EU position in EU-expand negotiations.
Is EU fascist country IYO ???

> And in fascism you are offered someone: The others. Let it be foreign
> people, foreign countries, foreign organizations (just look at what took
> place at the WTO conference in Seattle). And you create something with which
> people can identify: their nation, their leader. Fascism is close to a
> religion, where the leader becomes the worshipped person. And everybody
> knows how religions can mobilize people! You can start with the holy wars
> and jump all the way through history directly to Northern Ireland or Israel
> (followed the Camp David Summit?). I don't mind fascism in general being
> added to freeciv. It is a form of state we had in history and with we should
> never forget.
> Perhaps it can be combined with a more restrictive perspective, so as too
> make it not too attractive. It would be good, in terms of getting a message
> to the players, that it is perhaps impossible for a democratic nation to be
> allied witha fascist nation or to restrict some effects on wonders, when you
> have a fascist government. I know, that this hasn't happenend this way in
> real history (just look at Spain and its NATO membership during a fascist
> government). But it could be a way to deal with this delicate situation.

Sorry, but Nazi ideology is base of curent democracy
Remember that #define Nazi nationalist + socialist
Of course there are some add-ons to word Nazi,
but if you consider what they did before war, you won't
notice so big diff.

> 3. NAZI symboles and NAZI stuff
> It is true, that NAZI symboles are forbidden in Germany. It is also true,
> that our interior intelligence services are monitoring right-wing parties
> and organisations. It is true, that freeciv would be illegal in Germany, if
> it would use NAZI symboles.

They can't forbide using them for informational / identification purposes.
They would prohibit Auschwitz movies that way, and that's no what they want.
Freeciv wouldn't use them to anything more than informational / identification
purposes.

> Nevertheless, it is not true, that these kind of things are nulled out and
> therefore not accessible and not used to teach or learn about this time in
> our history. The reflection about this time is taking place constantly in
> Germany. This means in school, in public life, in the medias,... . And I
> believe, that most of the German people educated during the time of the
> Federal Republic of Germany (I'd personally restrict it to the last 30
> years), are more informed about this topic than the same age groups in other
> countries.

So, Germans are so well informed ...
How much of Germans could say of their heads number of people died in WWII
and Holocaust with accuracy +- 10% ???

> I have personally been to a concentration camp (KZ) and this is a
> must for every pupil in Germany. I have read passages of Hitler's "Mein
> Kampf" in school. Who of you can say that of himself?

I can.

> But, besides legal problems, why would I not integrate NAZI symbols in
> freeciv. The answer is simple: It is against the idea behind freeciv!
> What is the idea behind freeciv? People of different races, colors,
> religions, sexes from all over the world are working together to follow an
             ^^^^^
> idea, to build up something. This is something unique and a great
> opportunity to get us closer together on earth.

Ever played freeciv with girl ? ;-)

> I personally feel deeply ashamed of everything related to the NAZI regime.
> And we are trying to work our history up as good as we can. Germany is
> identifying itself with its history and not forgetting in saying: "Well,
> this was the past." We are trying very hard to present an image of Germany
> to the world, which is that of an open and modern country aware of its past.

Sorry, but Volkswagen has much bigger chances of being first association
with Germany than Hitler nowadays.

> But what do you intend? Do you want to
> play freeciv and hope the AI chooses fascism, so that you can go after the
> NAZI-bastards (btw: is the AI aware of it?). I don't think so. The chance
> that this would happen is not very big.

You can do
$ hard
$ create Hitler

> 5. The "Blitzkrieg" wonder
> So, for what does the "Blitzkrieg" wonder stands? What are its benefits?
> If you can correct me in my knowledge of military history and the benefits
> of it are useful and in accordance with real history, then I would favorize
> the adding of it to the main stream code of freeciv.

Blitzkrieg was something more than technological supremacy or unprepared enemy.
'diff -ruN ww1 ww2' to see what blitzkrieg was.
And look at 6-days war for very good example.