[Freeciv-Dev] Re: What we can learn from MOO3

[Raimar Falke <rf13@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 08:58:50AM -0400, Alan Schmitt wrote:
> Disclaimer: I have only played a few games of GalCiv, and I am in no way
> an expert.

> > I spend 12h yesterday to play one (1) game on a small map. It would be
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^

> > Although also not all elements got tooltips you aren't lost like in
> > MoO3. I didn't found an in-game help system. The RMB is used to mark
> > the destination of a goto/enemy to attack. 
> > 
> 
> The game is definitely lacking as concerns help. The manual itself is
> disappointing but it is being rewritten.

A gc_quickguide.html will be installed on the hard-disk. The website
features several guides.

> > A good thing about the interface is the graphs interface which is
> > almost all the time visible
> > (http://www.galciv.com/images/screenshots/8162002122540AM.jpg at the
> > middle of the right side). Also nice was the split into the left side
> > (80%) and the right side (20%). What is displayed can be changed
> > independently.
> > 
> 
> One small complaint about this sidebar is that one needs to refresh it
> actively. For instance, if the main screen is the domestic fund
> allocation screen, and the sidebar is the planet list, when changing the
> allocation of funds to military / social / research, one needs to click
> on the "show planet sidebar" button to have the "turns left" refreshed.
> But it does make for efficient management of planets.

Yes. How could I have forgot this? However it isn't _this_ annoying.

> > Also nice was that you good visual feedback at the diplomacy screen:
> > yellow for they-won't-accept-this and green for they-will-agree. This
> > however allow some kind of light cheating: if you have a deal
> > tech-vs-tech for example which is green you add money of the other
> > side till it turn yellow. If this behavior of the players was so
> > expected they it would be nice if the game had a add-money-till-yellow
> > button.
> > 
> 
> The same thing happens in Civ III with the advisor. In fact, I just
> received a mass Apolyton email this morning that was talking about "what
> makes a good civ-like game", and the advisor was mentioned (comparing
> tech trading with SMAC):
> 
> <quote>
> CivIII, you have to click on the tech that interests you, and to click
> on the tech you're ready to disclose : the advisor tells you whether it
> will work or not. In  short, the concept is the same, and is equally
> complex (a tad more   complex in CivIII actually), but the interface is
> much more simple.
> </quote>

I forgot: you can change the details of an exchange as often as you
like. So no "Diplomat gone" like in Moo. If this is implemented in
freeciv at some time I will code this add-money-till-yellow button ;)

> > Alan can you answer me some questions about the game? Starting from
> > the middle I had money problems. At 3/4 of the game it was something
> > like this: I collected 700 with taxes, 100 with traderoutes (they have
> > limited the number at the start. I had no idea how to increase it even
> > when I hold 60% of the global might). However I could have spend
> > 4000. So I can only spend 20%. This rate occasionaly also got down to
> > 15%. What did I wrong? In my home sector I had 4 planets (lucky) and I
> > build 2 full star bases. Not enough or too many star bases. So what I
> > made it selling my techs to the AI. I got deals like 750 for 30 turns
> > which was quite nice for 2-3 high techs. The last enemy had only one
> > planet left. He wanted peace. I requested all his money and he
> > accepted. So I got 15k. This was only enough to drive my economy at
> > 100% for 3 turns.
> > 
> 
> As I said at the beginning, I'm still pretty much a newbie with this
> game. But there are a couple things that I learned:

> - do not maintain a huge army, they are very expensive.

Maintance was about 250 IIRC. But it looks like this is buildings +
ships.

>   Being flexible helps a lot (playing the spending sliders). 

>   As it is very difficult to invade a planet (especially if the
>   population is big)

Yes. The AI tries it 3 times. It wasn't successfully. I shot about 15
transports down.

>   , one has a few turns between war declaration and big problems. (I
>   discovered the first casualties in war in my latest game were
>   starbases, so now I heavily upgrade their defenses).

Yes my starbases also had small guarding fleets.

> - do not build all improvements, some of them are just too expensive.
> - Upgrade your planet quality (soil enhancement and habitat), which
>   makes for a bigger population -> more taxes.

> - Build economic updates on your starbases. Most of my planets are
>   constantly building constructors at midgame point.

Did build all updates as they came available. Same here about the
constructors.

> - Trade more. You can only start with 2 trade routes, but some techs let
>   you have more. 100 in trade seems a bit low (but you did not say what
>   map size you played on).

Is it possible to have more than 10 trade routes?

> - I am almost never able to be at 100 % spending. I'm usually around 60
>   %. It also depends whether you are in a recession or not (recession is
>   a game event, it is really bad: I had to cut my spending to less than
>   10 %).

There is also boom. Got this often (3-4 time in total) then recession.

> > Also when I used the worklists they rebuild trade goods and wonders
> > which are already built. I think this is a bug. Related: it doesn't
> > look like you get the production money back if you build "nothing" on
> > your planet.
> 
> I never use worklists, so I don't know. 

> And I think the "not getting prod back when building nothing" is on
> purpose.

This is weird. So either I have too loose money or build buildings
which I don't want and which cost my maintenance in the future?!

> To me, GalCiv is not a revolutionary game, but it's my favorite
> turn-based strategy game right now, for a few reasons.
> - The AI is just great. I've only played at 'Normal' (there are a few
>   levels above that), and it plays well with alliances, it detects
>   military build-up or cultural attacks, 

>   it sometimes even give you free ships if you're at war with a civ
>   they don't like but are too afraid to make war to.

Another thing I forgot to mention. I got small amounts of money (500
at most) and some star fighters from a player. And warnings about
"foobar is a threat to the galaxy" from another.

>   And one other great thing: as a legacy from the
>   original game (which was programmed for OS/2 and multithreaded), the
>   ai decisions are computed during the player's turn, so there is almost
>   no delay when hitting the "turn" button (except for watching ships
>   moving around). It's a nice change from civ III which was hard on my
>   poor slow cpu.

Yes the new-turn is fast.

> - The back story is interesting. I've just discovered a few parts of it,
>   but there are some new events almost at each game. Also, the player
>   has to make "moral" decisions when colonizing planets (and from time
>   to time). Being good prevents you from using resources as efficiently,
>   but good races tend to stick together and have alliances (and you get
>   free ships from minor races from time to time as well). Evil lets you
>   abuse resources and gives you access to some special techs.

I was both evil and good in my game.

> - Replayability is really good (which is not surprising for this kind of
>   games). It's possible to play on a tiny map (the game lasts a few
>   hours) to a gigantic one (I have not tried yet, but I imagine it takes
>   a long long time).

I really have to try the tiny map. If you play moo in a small map it
lasts 2-3h and after this you know you won or lost. I hope that the
time for tiny is in this range.

> - Great support: the forums are active, the main developer listens to
>   comments. Games uploaded for scoring (they have a "ladder" thing where
>   you can upload games) are also used to study how the AI reacts and
>   improve it. They release updates early and often (bug fixes as well as
>   new stuff) and have budgeted one year of support (whatever that means
>   ...). The game seems easy to mod, but I have not looked at that part
>   yet.
> 
> Sorry for the long mail. And as I said before: this is from someone who
> has just started playing a couple weeks ago.

Thanks for the information.

        Raimar

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