[Freeciv-Dev] Re: Bombers/Fighters no longer obsolete (PR#1628)

[Raahul Kumar <raahul_da_man@xxxxxxxxx>]

--- Raimar Falke <rf13@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 09:56:41PM -0400, Ross W. Wetmore wrote:
> > At 09:45 PM 02/06/25 -0700, Raahul Kumar wrote:
> > >Bomber                     Stealth Bomber
> > >
> > >build_cost    = 120        build_cost    = 160    + 33%
> > >attack        = 12         attack        = 14     + 17%
> > >defense       = 1          defense       = 5      + 400%
> > >hitpoints     = 20         hitpoints     = 20
> > >firepower     = 2          firepower     = 2
> > >move_rate     = 8          move_rate     = 12     + 50%
> 
> So you get +17% attack, +400% defense and +50% speed for only 33% more
> cost.

A rebuttal

Ross, Raimar: I offered the attackpower formula in order to avoid a long drawn
out discussion. It is not an ah-hoc formula, or random, or equivalent to any 20
other formulas anyone may choose to make up. It analyses the most important
parts of the combat effectiveness of any unit. Now I will compare and contrast
the formula I stole from the AI (This is a first. I never thought I would ever
defend any piece of code in the AI!) to Raimar's, as the given alternative.

This is an example of why Raimar's weights method is flawed. In order to figure
out whether a unit is a good attacker or defender, you consider the two
seperately. 

===============================================================================
  Legion -> Musketeers
              build_cost:  40  -- >   30  -25%
         attack_strength:   4  -- >    3  -25%
        defense_strength:   2  -- >    3  +50%
                      hp:  10  -- >   20  +100%
 
 We may not want that the attack_strength is reduced even is the
 build_cost is also reduced by the same amount. This wouldn't be a
 problem if we would have real stack-vs-stack fight. But for the
 current code it may be a disadvantage because you can only enter the
 fight with one unit.
================================================================================
Here is one example that Raimar's approach and mine clearly differ. 

Musketeer attackpower = 3 * 1 * 20 = 60 
Legion                 = 4 * 1 * 10 = 40

Defence power is Musketeer 60 vs Legion 20. A even bigger mismatch.

And the legion's build cost is greater! There is never a time when you would
want a legion as opposed to a musketeer. Raimar's method introduces extra
complexity, ignores the relationship between firepower/hps/attack. And it
produces the wrong answers. It also fails to emphasize why musketeers are so
powerful in the game. My method also answers what would be needed to make
legions as powerful as musketeers.

So to be blunt: Stealth bombers are weak. Bombers are far better attackers for
the shield cost. Remove the obsolete tags. It makes no sense to "upgrade" to a
weaker unit. The move rate and defence are irrelevant, because bombers are used
exclusively in a attacking role. 

I'll rerun that analysis with even more detail if you are still not convinced
that your theory is useless.  

Aloha,
RK.

When I hear somebody sigh, 'Life is hard,' I am always tempted to ask,
'Compared to what?' -Sydney Harris

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