[Freeciv-Dev] Re: CMA passes back control without reason (PR#1505)

[Raimar Falke <rf13@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 11:51:01PM +0200, Christian Knoke wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 11:05:25PM +0200, Reinier Post wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 06:56:53PM +0200, Raimar Falke wrote:
> > 
> > > > I am not quite sure what you mean by 'freeze this chain'.  The server
> > > > can send a 'save attributes now' message to the client, with an ID of
> > > > the savegame (as you pointed out, hostname+port+timestamp+turn is not
> > > > good enough, but hostname+port+timestamp+turn+number-of-saves-this-turn
> > > > will work I think).
> > > 
> > > A hash of the savegame file simpler and more robust.
> > 
> > Aah, I didn't understand what you mean with a 'hash'.  Yes, looks good.
> > 
> > > > The drawback is that for many reloaded games the client will not have
> > > > any attribute info in this case.
> > > 
> > > Harddisk space is cheap. So I don't see a problem retaining a lot of
> > > attribute files which are some kb in size.
> > 
> > The client may not have been connected to the game at all.  E.g. you
> > probably didn't play in 99% of the the thousands of savegames on
> > civserver.freeciv.org.
> 
> Here is the point where I don't follow Raimar. He claims that agents
> *need* to have a memory. But there certain are a lot of situations where
> this is impossible. 

> The agents have to (and of course will) have a way to start work
> from the "blank table".

> And thats why I think they shouldn't have a memory at all.

Without memory you will not see any planning which goes beyond the
current reflexive scheme. People want that the AI persuade long term
goal. Memory is needed for this.

> Think of an improved AI which remembers the positions of units it
> can no longer see. Want to save that? What happens if you play a
> single turn without the AI? All data lost?

What do you mean with without AI? The data is held by a history
agent. You can't disable it but you may clear specific parts of its
memory i.e. clear anything about player 3 because I just eliminated
him.

> If there is a server side, central, authoritative memory, you run into
> problems: some of them have been mentioned. 

> What if you use different agents for the same task? They can't share
> their data.

They can't share their data. Just think of first one as a neural
network and the second one as a prolog program. There is no automated
way to let them share their data.

> What if another player continues your game, with another client?

They can't share their data.

> If the memory is client-sided, you have the sinchronizing problem. Same
> problems as above apply also.
> 
> I think the only content of an agents memory can be user input, some
> presets, some goals and targets the user has defined. These data can
> be read and loosely associated to a loaded game by the client at game 
> start, always keeping in mind they may no(t) (longer) be valid. The agents
> need the knowledge to realize the goals into specific action. And there
> are other agents which will advice them.
> 
> But you may say this is cheap talk.

So are this general objections or are you happy if the bandwidth usage
is reduced?

        Raimar

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