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[Freeciv-Dev] Re: [PATCH] Fixing Warriors (PR#1351)

[Freeciv-Dev] Re: [PATCH] Fixing Warriors (PR#1351)

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To: Raahul Kumar <raahul_da_man@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: freeciv-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx, bugs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [Freeciv-Dev] Re: [PATCH] Fixing Warriors (PR#1351)
From: Daniel L Speyer <dspeyer@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:24:13 -0500 (EST)

On Wed, 27 Mar 2002, Raahul Kumar wrote:

> --- Daniel L Speyer <dspeyer@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> <snip>
> > > This patch makes Bronze Working a pre-req for Warrior Code. Warriors are
> > > obsoleted by phalanx, and pikemen obsoletes phalanx.
> > > 
> > 
> > This seems rather historically inappropriate -- there is no logical reason
> > for warrior code to require bronze working, and many cultures (think
> > native Americans) developed them in the opposite order.
> > 
> I'm not with you old chap. I have no idea what warrior code is supposed to be
> in
> the game, but it allows you to build archers. I have never heard of archers
> with
> pre-bronze tech. Maybe they exist but all of the archers I have ever head of
> all used iron tipped arrows.

Bronze arrowheads were used throughout the classical mediterranean and
stone (flint or obsidian) was used throughout pre-columbian north america.

I'm not sure exactly what warrior code is either, but it soulds like it
involves the extra discipline and dedication needed to master archery
(whereas anyone can wield a club).   There's no need for bronze working

> The reason I selected warrior code was because that was the only tech on the
> feudalism path with free pre-reqs.
> The kind of feudalism with knights clearly involves iron working.

At present, knights require chivalry requires horseback riding and
feudalism requires warrior code and monarchy requires ... -- no
metal-working is required.  I'd love to see a stone lance ;).  Your patch
would make bronze working a pre-req (through warrior code), but would
still not need iron working.  I'm dubious of a bronze lance either.

> Iron working
> is *always* preceded by bronze working. Is this clear? No one goes from stone
> weapons and clubs to pikemen without discovering bronze working in between.
> > Maybe iron working should be a requirenment for feudalism.  This is
> > historically reasonable, makes some sense, and makes legions come before
> > knights.
> I agree that iron working and monarchy make much more sense as pre-reqs for
> feudalism. Ours not to question why, merely to do or die. That still does not
> solve the problem of making warriors obsolete.

Yes it does.  Pikemen require feudalism would require monarchy and iron
working requires bronze working....  Therefore, you can't get pikemen
before phalanxes (ignoring stolen tech, etc.).

I don't see why ours is not to reason why here; this isn't for Civ II
compatibility, right?  That means its up to us to work it out.

> > Gameplaywise, though, I prefer having warriors and phalanxes available
> > simultaneously.  Sometimes, I just want a cheaper unit, especially if I'm
> > about to attack, so it doesn't make any difference.
> I've never found a use for warriors in any situation ever. I have to point out
> that this patch is only for the default ruleset. The Civ 2 ruleset still 
> allows
> you the joy of building warriors/phalanxes till the pikemen come. Kapeesh?
> > Since making phalanxes obsolete warriors does make sense, what would
> > people think about allowing units which are only obsolete by one?  It
> > seems realistic enough: not everyone abandoned muskets the instant rifles
> > were invented.  By the time mech. inf. came around, they basically
> > had.  It seems to me that learning leadership shouldn't be a military
> > disadvantage because it makes horse units more expensive, when they just
> > take ironclad-blasted cities anyway -- but that's how it is.
> > 
> > > [snip]
> > > dragoons -> cavalry -> tanks
> > > musketeers -> riflemen -> mechanised infantry
> > > 
> > 
> > Side note: do mech. inf. obsolete riflemen?  I thought not. 
> Hardly the point. The point is that you cannot build mech inf without
> developing
> the tech for riflemen. Contrast this to the pikemen/phalanx situation. 
> I also want you to contrast the current situation
> warriors replaced by phalanx, phalanx replaced by pikemen. Clearly it was
> intended that pikemen replace warriors. It makes no sense that if tanks 
> replace
> cavalry that you would still build dragoons. Correct?
> > > Nowhere else in Freeciv can you build a sucessor unit without going 
> > > through
> > 
> > > the intermediate stages. You must go A -> B -> C, rather than A -> C.
> > > 
> > 
> > frigate -> ironclad -> destroyer
> > frigate -> destroyer
> > 
> I'll fix that next if people actually care. It's just never been a huge 
> problem
> for me. This warrior/pikemen/phalanx issue has annoyed me ever since Civ 2 
> came
> out. People still have a use for frigates even if they can build destroyers.
> They might not have transports yet, so this situation is hardly the same.
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