Re: [Freeciv-Dev] Borders

[Ed Cogburn <ecogburn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Jules Bean wrote:
> 
> Mika Korhonen wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Martin Willemoes Hansen wrote:
> >
> > >>         I'm not sure what stronger concept of borders makes sense.  If
> > >> you're not using the land, why do you care if they build there?  If you 
> > >> do
> > >> care, then go kill their settlers.  Demilitarized zones, leapfrog
> > >> development with defensive units involved, and puffed-chest diplomatic
> > >> posturing are what the game's all about.  What real benefit do borders
> > >> give?
> > >
> > >If you wan't to build on the land or just wan't to have it so the other
> > >player can't build on it :) .. Of course if he want's the land he can
> > >declare war on you or make a deal. And visual borders would make it very
> > >obvious to know which lands are yours which aren't and which are no-mans
> > >land.
> >
> > And in any case that could be made a server option :) What about cases
> > where a player does not know about the existence of a nation? Should the
> > borders be seen in that case? I.e. are the borders supposed to be physical
> > (DO NOT ENTER THE BORDER ZONE) or logical (you just have to know) that are
> > only seen on the screen but not in real world if you get me.
> 
> Physical, I suspect.
> 
> As in, a few border guards and road signs there.  So there can be no
> doubt when you've crossed one.


        Not in SMAC (Alpha Centauri).  In that game the border is a
neutral gray hash mark overlaid between the edges of the squares. 
Its not a 'physical' object.
        There is no warning given when you cross the border, at least, I
haven't seen a warning pop up, but I haven't played SMAC that
much.  In my last SMAC game that I still have a backup for, I
checked at a very tight border between two cities only 2 squares
away from one another.  No warning when I moved a unit across the
border and adjacent to the other faction's city.  I also routinely
overflew that border area with air units during that game.
Either the border idea isn't supported by SMAC in a sophisticated
way, or the AI is more sophisticated in SMAC from the earlier
games.  The AI for this faction may simply have chosen not to
object because it was grossly outmatched by my faction at this
point.  In fact, the AI never violated the border the way I did
with air units; compare *that* with AI behavior in Civ1.  :-)


> 
> So you would see them, even if you couldn't see the cities involved.


        Exactly.  The border could be as much as 7 (I think) squares away
from your city, but I rarely saw it out that far.


> Personally I think they'd add a real dimension to the game - you could
> even trade land with diplomacy..


        Land trading?  That would be *ugly* to code, I imagine.  Early in
the game the border didn't imply the close proximity of another
faction, it was simply an indicator of the extent of your empire. 
Since the border is often closer to your cities than 7 squares you
routinely have to cross the border with your settlers to found new
cities at a comfortable distance from your existing ones.  If you
were to implement the border idea the way that SMAC does, you
would have to garrison the entire border to prevent other settlers
from crossing.  Not likely to happen early on.  The AI (freeciv),
I believe, would get desperate and found a city adjacent to the
border, even if its too close to an existing city.  In this case
the border would move right out from under the feet of your
garrison forces.  In SMAC, the presence of military units doesn't
seem to have any effect on the border.  Like I said, it doesn't
look like the border idea was implemented in a sophisticated way.


> 
> Jules

-- 
Ed C.