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[freeciv-data] Re: Tech and Ancient Units

[freeciv-data] Re: Tech and Ancient Units

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To: freeciv-data@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [freeciv-data] Re: Tech and Ancient Units
From: Thanasis Kinias <tkinias@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 07:19:29 -0700
Reply-to: freeciv-data@xxxxxxxxxxx

scripsit Bobby D. Bryant:
> On 2002.05.21 23:57:10 -0600 Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> > 
> > Starting with the ancient land units, we have:
> > 
> > Warriors (1/1/1) $10
> > Phalanx  (1/2/1) $20, req. Bronze Working
> > Horsemen (2/1/2) $20, req. Horseback Riding
> > Archers  (3/2/1) $30, req. Warrior Code
> > 
> > Right from the beginning, I don't see what the connection is between
> > the
> > phalanx and bronze working.  What makes a phalanx different from
> > warriors is not bronze tips to spears, but the level of organization.
> > For a phalanx to work, a supply of free men with military training is
> > necessary.  That suggests an association with some level of
> > government,
> > either republic or monarchy (or both).  I would suggest the republic.
> Forgive my nit-picking, but you have touched on a subject dear to my 
> heart.

That's something I like to hear!  No forgiveness necessary :)

> The phalanx apparently represents the Greek phalanx sensu strictu, and 
> while it did involve a certain degree of social order and military 
> discipline, the heavy bronze armor was in fact a part of what made the 
> thing work.  These guys were human tanks.  IIRC the full kit ran 
> something like 60 lbs of bronze.

OK, the origin of the association makes sense now -- not that I agree,
but I can see where it came from.

> However, in a more generalized meaning of 'phalanx' your argument for 
> social organization (or perhaps tactical innovation instead) would 
> work.

As with all things Freeciv, there is no such thing as `sensu strictu',
really.  There is no separate unit type for Zulu warriors (`impi' I
think the formation was called) or any other primitive but organized
army, so Phalanx stands for all.

> > The point at which the phalanx becomes a legion is the point at
> > which it becomes a professional army, as opposed to a body of
> > citizen-warriors.  Again, it has nothing to do with ironworking.
> Similarly, the legion apparently represents the Roman legion sensu 
> strictu, and the legion was as incredible a war machine when it was a 
> levy under the middle Republic as it was after it became a body of 
> full-time professionals under the late Republic and early Empire.  And 
> it was basically their discipline, unit organization, and innovative 
> tactics that let them smash (almost) anyone they went up against.  
> Agreed that the ironworking is irrelevant; I would use a social 
> organization such as Republic or else some sort of tactical tech as the 
> prereq -- preferably *both*.

When did the Marius reforms occur?  I had thought that was around the
time the Roman armies were professionalized, but my Roman history is

Logically, you can't really campaign the way the Romans did with a
part-time army of citizen-soldiers.  Yes, the early/middle republic had
successes, but I was under the (mis?)apprehention that the standing,
professional army made the great conquests of the late republic/early
empire possible.

> >  Warrior Code seems  to be a dead-end anyway.
> I don't know about Warrior Code per se, but at some point a tech tree 
> is going to have to have some dead-end and/or 'filler' techs for the 
> simple purpose of keeping players from getting too many goodies too 
> soon.

I'm opposed to `filler' techs in principal, but I recognize how they
might be necessary.  My dead-end remark was simply a note that Warrior
Code can be removed without any ripples down the tree, because nothing
depends on it, not a suggestion that all such dead ends ought to be

Thanasis Kinias
Web Developer, Information Technology
Graduate Student, Department of History
Arizona State University
Tempe, Arizona, U.S.A.

Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul

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