[Freeciv-Dev] Re: (PR#4593) Diplomats

["T.J.T van Kooten" <thomas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

> 
> Hello,
> 
> I've thought a bit about diplomats which are rather super-powerful
> attacking units with default options (diplchance 80). Used as
> attackers against cities, they can't (or very hardly) be countered.
> Used as defensors they are rather useless: if a defending dip in a
> city makes the chances of success for bribing the city be lowered to
> 64% instead of 80% this is still too much imho.
> 
If 80%, 70%, 64% or even lower is the right number for 
diplchance is disputable. My diplomats have been caught 
a fair number of times when trying to bribe cities on the 
standard settings. Most of the times a bribe will succeed 
but not always. City bribes are not totally foolproof.

Of course the diplchance setting can always be changed 
to once personal preferences. 

> I don't know how diplomats work on civ2 but in the game i'd like to
> play such easy ways to take a city shouldn't exist or just be possible
> in certain limited cases.
> 
In Civ2 the diplomats/spies always seem to succeed in 
city bribes. Only against cities that have been "attacked" 
by a diplomat before there's a chance to get caught. 
Even then Freeciv's chances for a diplomat to get busted 
are higher than in Civ2. Freeciv seems to have a far 
bigger chance that the diplomat will be caught.

> Here what i think are super-powers:
> 
> super-power 1: unlimited moves
> 
> One thing which seems to be the bigger super-power is the ability of
> engaging an unlimited number of combats against a city regardless of
> the moves left for the attacking dip and without suffering any damage
> until the end of the contest.
> 
> A lucky dip can bribe a city defended with several other ones in one
> round, engaging as much combat as needed against the defensors. For
> example 3 defending dips (which is rather unthinkable in term of
> affected prod) leave a 41% chance of taking the city for the attacker.
> 
> 
> Here is an example of an attacking dip far of two tiles from a
> targeted city (this city is defended with 3 dips): 
> 
> 1/ first the attacker uses one move to go to a adjacent tile of the
> target (on
>  move left)
> 
> 2/ then a first combat is engaged against one of the defending dips 
>  -> 100% chance to reach this stage, 80% chance to win
> 
> 3/ a second combat against the 2nd defensor 
>  -> 80% chances to reach this stage, 80% chances to win
> 
> 4/ a third combat against the 3rd defensor
>  -> 64% chances to reach this stage, 80% chances to win
> 
> 5/ a fourth combat against the city itself
>  -> 51% chances to reach this stage, 80% chances to win 
> 
>    -> 41% chances globally to win the contest
> 
> In such a case, this behaviour makes the dip to have kind of 3 extra
> moves. Also, the dip isn't damaged by the several contests since it
> keeps its 80% winchance for each of them.
> 
Isn't that the turning the argument upside down? The 
diplomat isn't fighting with those other diplomats he's 
trying to get past them!  
Poit of fact is that the chances for a city bribe to succeed 
have been dramatically lowered. It has to pass a number 
of diplomats first before it can succeed. When the 
diplomat is caught at any step he will be destroyed. Ergo 
: the "attacking" (acting would be a better term)   
diplomat is at risk all the way, he does not get a  triple 
action bonus. Finally, seeing as the diplomat will be 
destroyed at the end of a city bribe it  would be pointless 
for a diplomat to get damaged midway. 

  
> In comparison with that, a horse attacking a 3 warriors defended city
> has no chance : it needs one move to approach the city, then one move
> to attack and (possibly) kill the 1st warrior. After that no moves are
> left and no more combats can be engaged in the same round. The horse
> is by the way probably damaged which can make it easily killable by
> one of the 2 warriors left in the city or at least lowers its chances
> to win another combat against the city and reduces its ability of 2
> moves for the next rounds.
> 
> 
> super-power 2: ability of having 100% chances in aggressive actions
> regarless to diplchance
> 
> These actions are:
> - bribe a unit
> - investigate city
> 
> I don't remember exactly how "poison city water" works for spys so i
> cant speak about that.
> 
The city population will drop one point and the spy has a 
chance to escape to the nearest friendly city. However, 
spies can also plant nukes. Which is far quicker way to 
bring down the city population, although they have a 
higher chance to get caught. Spies in that aspect are a 
"poor mans"-nuclear missile. 

> What could be done to counterbalance those super-powers is to : 
> 
> - limit the cases where a city is bribable 
> 
(A) One solution is the disabling city bribes altogether or 
(B)  try the other solution that already exist in the game: 
Increase your city size and gold reserves and try to reach 
democracy as quickly as possible.

> - raise the efficiency of defending dips in a city (for example by
>   really taking a move to the attacker in a dip contest).
> 
> - increase the risk in bribing a city (for example the cost is lost
> for
>   the attacker even if the city doesn't revolt)
> 
> 
Smaller cities would still be bribed but it would certainly 
slow the bribing of larger cities (size 5 or higher). That 
wouldn't be so bad I think....:-)

Cheers,

CapTVK

>

> Hello,

>

> I've thought a bit about diplomats which are rather super-powerful

> attacking units with default options (diplchance 80). Used as

> attackers against cities, they can't (or very hardly) be countered.

> Used as defensors they are rather useless: if a defending dip in a

> city makes the chances of success for bribing the city be lowered to

> 64% instead of 80% this is still too much imho.

>

If 80%, 70%, 64% or even lower is the right number for diplchance is disputable. My diplomats have been caught a fair number of times when trying to bribe cities on the standard settings. Most of the times a bribe will succeed but not always. City bribes are not totally foolproof.

Of course the diplchance setting can always be changed to once personal preferences.

> I don't know how diplomats work on civ2 but in the game i'd like to

> play such easy ways to take a city shouldn't exist or just be possible

> in certain limited cases.

>

In Civ2 the diplomats/spies always seem to succeed in city bribes. Only against cities that have been "attacked" by a diplomat before there's a chance to get caught. Even then Freeciv's chances for a diplomat to get busted are higher than in Civ2. Freeciv seems to have a far bigger chance that the diplomat will be caught.

> Here what i think are super-powers:

>

> super-power 1: unlimited moves

>

> One thing which seems to be the bigger super-power is the ability of

> engaging an unlimited number of combats against a city regardless of

> the moves left for the attacking dip and without suffering any damage

> until the end of the contest.

>

> A lucky dip can bribe a city defended with several other ones in one

> round, engaging as much combat as needed against the defensors. For

> example 3 defending dips (which is rather unthinkable in term of

> affected prod) leave a 41% chance of taking the city for the attacker.

>

>

> Here is an example of an attacking dip far of two tiles from a

> targeted city (this city is defended with 3 dips):

>

> 1/ first the attacker uses one move to go to a adjacent tile of the

> target (on

>  move left)

>

> 2/ then a first combat is engaged against one of the defending dips

>  -> 100% chance to reach this stage, 80% chance to win

>

> 3/ a second combat against the 2nd defensor

>  -> 80% chances to reach this stage, 80% chances to win

>

> 4/ a third combat against the 3rd defensor

>  -> 64% chances to reach this stage, 80% chances to win

>

> 5/ a fourth combat against the city itself

>  -> 51% chances to reach this stage, 80% chances to win

>

>    -> 41% chances globally to win the contest

>

> In such a case, this behaviour makes the dip to have kind of 3 extra

> moves. Also, the dip isn't damaged by the several contests since it

> keeps its 80% winchance for each of them.

>

Isn't that the turning the argument upside down? The diplomat isn't fighting with those other diplomats he's trying to get past them! 

Poit of fact is that the chances for a city bribe to succeed have been dramatically lowered. It has to pass a number of diplomats first before it can succeed. When the diplomat is caught at any step he will be destroyed. Ergo : the "attacking" (acting would be a better term) diplomat is at risk all the way, he does not get a  triple action bonus. Finally, seeing as the diplomat will be destroyed at the end of a city bribe it  would be pointless for a diplomat to get damaged midway.

 

> In comparison with that, a horse attacking a 3 warriors defended city

> has no chance : it needs one move to approach the city, then one move

> to attack and (possibly) kill the 1st warrior. After that no moves are

> left and no more combats can be engaged in the same round. The horse

> is by the way probably damaged which can make it easily killable by

> one of the 2 warriors left in the city or at least lowers its chances

> to win another combat against the city and reduces its ability of 2

> moves for the next rounds.

>

>

> super-power 2: ability of having 100% chances in aggressive actions

> regarless to diplchance

>

> These actions are:

> - bribe a unit

> - investigate city

>

> I don't remember exactly how "poison city water" works for spys so i

> cant speak about that.

>

The city population will drop one point and the spy has a chance to escape to the nearest friendly city. However, spies can also plant nukes. Which is far quicker way to bring down the city population, although they have a higher chance to get caught. Spies in that aspect are a "poor mans"-nuclear missile.

> What could be done to counterbalance those super-powers is to :

>

> - limit the cases where a city is bribable

>

(A) One solution is the disabling city bribes altogether or (B)  try the other solution that already exist in the game: Increase your city size and gold reserves and try to reach democracy as quickly as possible.

> - raise the efficiency of defending dips in a city (for example by

>   really taking a move to the attacker in a dip contest).

>

> - increase the risk in bribing a city (for example the cost is lost

> for

>   the attacker even if the city doesn't revolt)

>

>

Smaller cities would still be bribed but it would certainly slow the bribing of larger cities (size 5 or higher). That wouldn't be so bad I think....:-)

Cheers,

CapTVK