[Freeciv-Dev] Re: Fascism patch

[Steve Hodge <shodge@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Patrick Schmid wrote:
> I'd like to contribute my thoughts to this discussion too. As my email
> address shows, I'm German.

As you can see from my address I'm not. I'm not Australian either, for
that matter.

> 1. German fascism/anti-NAZI paranoia:
> It is unique on this planet. 
...
> The common anti-NAZI behavior of Germans and Germany is more a result of
> what we did in WWII to the rest of the world.

I'm sure this has been brought up before but I'll say it again. What the
Nazi's did in WWII is not the only case of gross atrocities the world
has ever seen. Several of the other races/nations already in FreeCiv
have similarly bad records. For example, I recently read that the Aztecs
once sacrificed 20,000 slaves in 3 days. The Romans and the Mongols are
two others that immediately spring to mind as having had similarly poor
reputations. Even the English have had incidents. I think we have to be
very careful if we start to ban some races/nations on behavioral grounds
- it can be taken as implicit approval of the others behavior. I don't
feel it is my place to that sort of value judgment.

> 3. NAZI symboles and NAZI stuff
> But, besides legal problems, why would I not integrate NAZI symbols in
> freeciv. The answer is simple: It is against the idea behind freeciv!
> What is the idea behind freeciv? People of different races, colors,
> religions, sexes from all over the world are working together to follow an
> idea, to build up something.

You must be playing a different game. For me the goal of FreeCiv is
quite simple: conquer the world. Maybe you're talking about the
development process? If so then that's not relevant. No one is
advocating the Nazis behavior or their ideals, not for the developers
and not for players.

> And know you want to destroy it by including something which hurts the
> German members of this project deeply?

Of course not. However I'm not a very "politically correct" person. I
don't believe we should hide things because they are offensive to some
people. Note that I'm not arguing that a Nazi nation should be included,
I'm just arguing that IMO the only really good reason for not including
it is the legal one.

> I personally feel deeply ashamed of everything related to the NAZI regime.
> And we are trying to work our history up as good as we can. Germany is
> identifying itself with its history and not forgetting in saying: "Well,
> this was the past." We are trying very hard to present an image of Germany
> to the world, which is that of an open and modern country aware of its past.
> But is it necessary for that to always point directly towards it and see us
> only in this perspective?

Again, of course not. There is also a German nation. The fact is that we
have to choose one aspect of each nations history and there are always
people who are going to happy and unhappy with that choice. Should we be
choosing communist Russia over imperialist Russia, or vice versa?

> Let me ask you directly: Would you like as American for example to come to
> Japan and be asked: "He, you liked the show you got with Hiroshima?"... To
> normal people such a question causes embarrasment and you are starting to
> explain, why it happened.

I'm not sure were you are going with this. It doesn't have anything to
do with the game or the issue, or are you asking that nuclear weapons
are removed?

...
> So, someone has to play to choose
> fascism as his form of state. Why would you choose and what would you feel,
> when you see the NAZI symboles?

That has nothing to do with it. I have no desire to go out and nuke
cities - but I do it in the game. I don't empathise with the nation I'm
playing - I don't follow their policies, ideals, or behavior.
You and I have no right to dictate what someone else can or can't play.
If someone plays in poor taste then don't play with them. 

> For those, who still don't understand: The NAZI symboles are symboles by the
> meaning of the word. They represent an idea, they provide a form of
> identification with this idea. Do you really want to identify with mass
> murder and everything else I listed previously.

That is for the individual to decide - it is not for you or I to
dictate. Using the Nazi's in FreeCiv no more advocates their ideals than
using the Aztecs advocates slavery.

> 5. The "Blitzkrieg" wonder

The points here aren't really valid either. FreeCiv is not an
historically accurate portrayal of events (and not intended to be). The
wonders are not meant to represent the real concepts/constructions they
are named after. For example, the Pyramids were mausoleums, they did
nothing for Egypt's growth. Another: Women's Suffrage had nothing to do
with making it easier to go to war, yet that is it's sole purpose in
CivII.

To recap, no-one (IMO) is trying to be offensive or Germans or any other
group. Personally I believe it should be in a modpack, mainly due to the
legal issues.

Regards,
Steve Hodge