Re: [Freeciv-Dev] Borders

[Ed Cogburn <ecogburn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

        I missed this thread before posting my response about borders in
another thread.  Let me repeat what I said earlier, below.


Tony Stuckey wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 10:56:07PM +0200, Thue janus Kristensen wrote:
> >     When dealing with other players you can more easyly determine when
> > they are comming too close, and diplomacy becomes simpler . In SMAC it
> > is an act of war to build a city within another persons territory. (note
> > that you can nudge the border by building a city close to it.)
> >     By reading some SMAC forums, and forums about upcomming civ3, it is
> > my impression that borders is
> > considered a great thing by most players, leading to better gameplay. It
> > clearly makes the the game more
> > realistic.
> >     Firaxis (The company with Sid Meier and Brian Reynolds) who is
> > developing civ3 is going to include borders, so obviously they still
> > like the idea after SMAC
> >
> > Of course it wont really work with computer players unless some kind of
> > diplomacy system is implemented.
> > You may be able to make a function to notify the player when an enemy
> > enters your territory
> 
>         Moving into a city square with a worker in Civ2 caused different
> actions based upon your war/peace status with the player owning the worker.
> You would either get a dialog box "We have a treaty with XXX, are you sure
> you want to do this?!", or you would displace the worker if you were at war.


        What about squares that aren't in the region of a city but are
gap squares between some of your cities?


>         You could use national diplomacy options to tell people to remove
> troops from your land in Civ2.


        Only squares that are part of a city.  Gap squares between cities
aren't handled at all.


>         I'm not sure what stronger concept of borders makes sense.  If
> you're not using the land, why do you care if they build there?  If you do


        If the square they are building a city on is in the middle of
your terrain, its a problem.


> care, then go kill their settlers.


        And go to war every time the stupid AI builds a non-viable city
in the midst of your empire?  You'll end up in a nearly constant
state of war with every AI player.  There are often situations
where you are already at war with someone else and don't have the
strength for war on multiple fronts.  This problem is created by
stupidity on the AI's part, that isn't simple to solve (in terms
of the AI code), but borders solve the problem nicely.


> Demilitarized zones, leapfrog
> development with defensive units involved, and puffed-chest diplomatic
> posturing are what the game's all about.  What real benefit do borders
> give?

        There's no zone, the border is drawn between squares.  I don't
see how a border 'leapfrogs' anything.  Defensive units and
defensive fortifications are still needed in strategic places
where combat is likely in the future.  The border doesn't stop you
from fortifying your side of the border.  As for diplomatic
posturing, that is still alive and well in Alpha Centauri.

        Right now, in freeciv, we are in a constant state of war with
other players, so a border has no useful effect.  In the future
though, with the ability to have treaties with other players
(especially AI), borders keep the AI from running about and
'hanging around' in your territory.
        In civ1/2, you had the problem where an AI unit was sitting on a
useful nearby square preventing your city from using that square
even though you are at peace with the player who controls that
unit.  At least in civ2, you could 'ask' the AI to remove its
units, but this is determined by whether the square is in use by a
city.  Borders take care of those isolated squares which are
between cities, but aren't being used by a city.  In civ2, AI
units could hang out in these small 'gaps' in your empire, forcing
you to worry about their presence.  You also had to worry about
the stupid AI building a non-viable city in these gaps.
        In the figure below, '#' are those 'gap' squares I'm talking
about.  'C' is a city, '.' is a square in use.  Notice how a
border line takes care of those gaps. (I hope this is displayed
right)

       -------
      /   ... \
     /   ..... \
   --    ..C.. \
  / ...##...../
  |.....##...|
  |..C..#... \
  \..........|
   \...#..C../
    \  ...../
     \  .../
      -----


-- 
Ed C.